Author Topic: Work benches for building rifles  (Read 24304 times)

eagle24

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Work benches for building rifles
« on: February 07, 2012, 12:02:10 AM »
What height are your benches for building rifles.  I am setting up my newly vacant shop for building rifles.  I have 2 solid door slabs for bench tops and plan to build them free standing (not against a wall).  Trying to decide what height to make them and whether I want to build them the same heights.  I will mount a pair of parrot vices on one bench.  Any suggestions?

docone

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Re: Work benches for building rifles
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2012, 12:26:31 AM »
My bench is 40" high.
I also made my top with 2 X 4s glued together side to side. This gave me an heavy table top so vibrations were minimized. I then added stops for rests, and I have my power head for my engraving set up on the front left hand side. I am a Lefty so it works for me. My engraving vise fits in a fitting. I use the GRS system. The Benchmate, Engraving ball, etc.. Everything is compact.
The weight of the table top makes a large difference.
I really like it.

Offline stuart cee dub

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Re: Work benches for building rifles
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2012, 12:26:49 AM »
 Mr Hall ,
That is a good question .
  My new and improved shop has a new built -in  bench height of 49'' and a parrot style vice installed on the top corner from Grizzly tools.It is tall enough to work off of standing up which is how I prefer to work a stock blank down .
It improved productivity and is better for my work style ergonomically.
I regret not making a taller bench years ago but I was trying to save money with shorter 4x4 legs .

My old ''door'' bench was closer to 38'' and has been relegated to other duties.
Make it as tall as you need to .
Best of luck with your project ,
Stuart

Offline Dave B

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Re: Work benches for building rifles
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2012, 04:07:51 AM »
Being vertical challenged my bench top is 37" and the top of my vice is 11" above that. I can engrave and carve comfortably in its current position.
Dave Blaisdell

Offline rick landes

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Re: Work benches for building rifles
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2012, 06:11:57 PM »
I am 6'1" tall and I made mine at about 40" high, but most of the actual work area is at vise top level or about 48", at the top of the pattern makers vise.

Will you stand or sit? I prefer to stand for most work.

You will work best at a bench height matched to your height. My shop would be tough for someone too much shorter.

You never want to get too short so as to have to bend your head down and tuck your chin!
“No free man shall ever be de-barred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain their right to keep and bear arms is as a last resort to protect themselves against tyranny in government." Thomas Jefferson

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Work benches for building rifles
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2012, 06:31:47 PM »
The main bench I work at has a vise that is height adjustable.  It is mounted on a 2 3/4" steel pin that extends through heavy steel bushings that lock it in place and allow for adjustment.  For heavy work, I like it lower.  For finer work I like it higher.  What ever the bench set-up you have, it should be heavy and stable.  If it is free standing, considerable weight is required.  I see some free standing benches that appear to be very light weight.  The bench should not move even with heavy agresive work. 

Jim

Offline TMerkley

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Re: Work benches for building rifles
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2012, 06:34:18 PM »
I would say that it is dependant on your build.  Recommend belly button height.   ;D

Offline TMerkley

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Re: Work benches for building rifles
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2012, 06:38:06 PM »
It's kind of like blacksmithing, where the height of the anvil is set at the knuckles of the smith when he is standing straight with his arms at his side and hands at a slight curl. 

eagle24

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Re: Work benches for building rifles
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2012, 06:48:34 PM »
I didn't think about build/height.  Guess the same bench height for different folks might not work to well.  I'll probably start with the bench I am going to mount the parrot vices on and build it a little on the high side so I can cut the legs down and adust if needed.

Jim,

The tops for these benches are solid core birch door slabs that weigh around 100lbs.  On the main inletting bench, I was thinking about building a trough/shelf down low underneath the bench and storing my steel in it.  That would give even more weight to that bench.  If I have to, I can drill the floor of my shop and anchor them down, but would prefer not to.  I need to look into modifying the parrot vices so they are adjustable.  I think I could do that and I like the idea of being able to adjust the height.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Work benches for building rifles
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2012, 07:13:15 PM »
Free standing benches have to be very substantial to keep down vibration and movement.
I like them screwed to a wall.
Mine are so covered with tools right now that pictures would be embarrassing.
I have a vise mounted on a Wilton Powerarm work positioner for standing and a vise mounted direct to a bench for mostly sitting.
I don't think I could build guns without a Powerarm. Good tools cost but the Powerarm is 30+ years old so its only cost me about 5-6 dollars a year.
I use Brownell's plastic soft jaws, the green/blue ones for metal a LOT. The last forever and are a GREAT product. The blue pair shown is about a year old now. I have a pair that are 30 years old and very well used that I still have on the vise I use the most. If the get dirty/oily wash with alcohol. Get cut up and hold chips? sand them down with a belt sander.
They seem to be impervious to anything but fire and maybe Acetone.
Heavy work is done on  a big old 6" vise I bought when I was a kid. Marked "England" this was back when Coast to Coast stores handled European made stuff. 
Bench tops are 2" lumber with a plywood/chipboard sheet to level it then Formica glued on that.
I do need a LOT more drawers under the benches though.
Bar stools bought cheap from yard sales make good chairs for the shop. When they wear down find more at another yard sale.
Dan

Powerarm on corner of 32" high bench. I set at this bench when using the engraving ball.


Vise on the Bench with supports. This bench is 34" high.


Brownell's soft jaws for metal


30+ year old Brownell's soft jaws for metal

The Aluminum side is handy too


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Offline TMerkley

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Re: Work benches for building rifles
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2012, 07:31:50 PM »
One of the most important aspects of a work shop is "Comfort".  With that a worker is most productive...

Offline Beaverman

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Re: Work benches for building rifles
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2012, 07:34:51 PM »
Lots of good advise here, may I interject something that works for me, consider mounting ALL your new benches on locking casters, this make reconfiguring the shop much easier and can be done solo instead of pleading with a buddy to come over and help move your 5 ton bench later on when you acquire another new floor mounted power tool that your trying to find wall space for, if you decide to use casters, spend the money to buy decent ones rated for the weight of said item to be mounted on, nothing worse then wrestling with under rated casters on the bottom of your wood lathe bench or any other machine or bench, ( don't ask me how I know this), good luck, would like to see what you come up with when your finished with the new furniture!
« Last Edit: February 07, 2012, 07:36:07 PM by Beaverman »

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Work benches for building rifles
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2012, 09:15:17 PM »
Here is a photo of the set-up I primarily use.  The table is a very heavy cast iron lay-out table.  I believe it weighs in the neighborhood of 1200 pounds!  The vise is mounted on the pin I previously described and I have made a ball and socket system that allows the vise position to be manipulated.  The vise is a Brownells version of the versa-vise that has had the front jaw modified such that it rotates on a big shoulder bolt.  I also have a big machinest vise mounted to a separate table for heavier work.

Now, I don't think something this big and heavy is required, but as mentioned before, something that doesn't move even with heavy work is what you are after.  Casters are a good idea, but I would worry that they would allow potential movement and wobble.  I want as little movement as possible.


Offline Collector

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Re: Work benches for building rifles
« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2012, 09:52:06 PM »
Here is a photo of the set-up I primarily use.  I want as little movement as possible.



Jim, I, ahhh,... think you managed to achieve that.

Surely the other end of that table is secured to the floor with 'J' bolts or it's counter-weighted...  ;)

I really, really like your table. ;D

Interesting topic and having no workshop, I'm jealous of what I see.

eagle24

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Re: Work benches for building rifles
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2012, 10:36:58 PM »
1200 lbs  :o  You probably don't bump that around much.  I'm guessing when I get one of these tables built it will weigh around 200 lbs with the vices mounted.  I do some welding and blacksmithing and have a good bit of steel in my shop.  Mostly bar stock and round stock.  I thought I would build a trough under the table and will probably keep around 200 lbs of steel in it, so that would give me around a 400 lb bench as well as a better center of gravity.  The setup you have on your vice would work for the vices I have as well.  I'll give that some thought and fabricate some sort of adjustable system for my vices.

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Work benches for building rifles
« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2012, 04:43:32 AM »
That's how Jim's carving is so nice...his work doesn't jump around. . . . . at all.
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chuck-ia

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Re: Work benches for building rifles
« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2012, 04:48:33 AM »
When working on a gun, I really can't think of any time I have had the gun laying on the bench, allways in the vise, might want to keep this in mind. chuck

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Work benches for building rifles
« Reply #17 on: February 08, 2012, 09:47:36 PM »
Some artists work on leather covered bench tops, no vises used at all for their carving.

There is no 'one way' in this game. It's always interesting to me to see all the variety in tools and styles. Keep up the good work, everyone.

Tom
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Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Work benches for building rifles
« Reply #18 on: February 08, 2012, 10:10:01 PM »
Some artists work on leather covered bench tops, no vises used at all for their carving.

There is no 'one way' in this game. It's always interesting to me to see all the variety in tools and styles. Keep up the good work, everyone.

Tom


Perhaps I'm being a little too argumentative, but I will give you my thoughts on this.  Working alone and being largely self-taught, a wide variety of techniques are naturally going to develop for the gunbuilder today.  But, there are often methods that are most efficient and produce the best results.  These are the methods that developed and were refined over the hundreds of years when these guns were produced as a necessary usefull item and in an efficient manner.  These are the techniques to attempt to home in on in my view.  They work best, and produce results that are appropriate to the product being created. 

Jim

Offline Glenn

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Re: Work benches for building rifles
« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2012, 02:37:39 PM »
I've always been told the work bench top should be at least waist high / top of the belt line.  This is where mine is and it has always worked for me. 
Many of them cried; "Me no Alamo - Me no Goliad", and for most of them these were the last words they spoke.

Online rich pierce

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Re: Work benches for building rifles
« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2012, 04:43:27 PM »
........ there are often methods that are most efficient and produce the best results.  These are the methods that developed and were refined over the hundreds of years when these guns were produced as a necessary usefull item and in an efficient manner.  These are the techniques to attempt to home in on in my view.  They work best, and produce results that are appropriate to the product being created. 

Jim

"Best" is at best a subjective term.  You state that your methods echo those developed over hundreds of years but perhaps it would be hard to argue that JP Beck or Andrew Verner or George Schroyer or Isaac Berlin had 1200 pound benches with ball vises on them.  Your methods and approaches allow for the most accurate, precise work but are clearly not required for producing fine Kentucky rifles in the manner and style in which originals were made, no matter how strongly you state it.
Andover, Vermont

Offline t.caster

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Re: Work benches for building rifles
« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2012, 06:15:45 PM »
My benchtop is 40" hi and 46" at the top of vises is my working height. Weighs around 100 lbs. You can walk all the way around it wich is a big advantage and timesaver.



I have a heavier 5" vise mounted on a heavy Oak stump.
Tom C.

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Work benches for building rifles
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2012, 06:42:41 PM »
Rich,

The point of the text you quoted was to drive home the idea that although there are some variations in techniques that work well, there is often a technique or techniques that are most efficient and produce quality results.  It wasn't specifically related to the size or weight of my workbench.  In a specific sense, I guess you could say it was related to holding work steady while carving, but as I said in my previous post, you don't need a 1200 pound bench to keep your work steady.  
 
I've taught many classes and I've seen techniques used that have been shown on this website.  As I said, since builders are mostly self-taught, some of the techniques which develop are not the most efficient and and don't often produce great results.  I have worked around and with builders who are accomplished and although there may be some variations in methods, I've found they often sort of converge.  That's what I'm saying.
  
I know today, we love the idea that nothing is wrong and that every idea is good etc. but I don't think that is necessarily a good approach.  I will repeat, there are methods that are best for a job or operation.  Any particular operation may have a couple alternatives that work well, but there are a host of other approaches that are a bad choice.  

As I said before, I think it is no coincidence that methods found to work best often mimic those that were used in the past.  Time may have passed, but we're still people wood is still wood etc.  The significanct thing to consider regarding period work is that it had to be done efficiently.  This is very often overlooked, especially in hobby builders today.

Further, when I speak of gunbuilding methods and techniques of the past, I don't restrict my view to American work.

In regards to my work being more finely finshed or precise when compared to most American work, you are probably right.  This speaks more toward my personality than anything else.  This means that I spend extra time working a background of carving or work a metal surface down further with a finer file etc.  It boils down to taking more time and care.  If I were to try to mimic less refined work, my techniqes would not significantly change.  I would work faster and perhaps stop with coarser tools.  This doesn't mean I would choose to hold the work piece rather than clampling it in a vice, for example.

What I won't agree with you about is the idea that since the American longrifle is sometimes relatively coarsely finished that less than professional methods should be considered or advocated.  Look at Mark Silver's work in recent times for example.  He has chosen to produce  work that is more coarsely finished and perhaps less precise than that from earlier in his career.  He still works in a professional manner using commonly accepted techniques.  Ask him whether these techniqes change significantly whether he is producing an American Longrifle or a finely finished English Fowling piece.  The answer you will get is that more time is spent, more care (focus attention etc.) is given and surfaces are taken to a finer finish using tools appropriate to this task, but the basic techniques remain the same.

After all this writing, I surely hope you understand the point of my previous post.  If your still not buying this let me know.  I will keep trying to explain as I think it is a very important point to be made.

Jim

 
« Last Edit: February 12, 2012, 07:04:22 PM by Jim Kibler »

Offline Eric Smith

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Re: Work benches for building rifles
« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2012, 07:21:12 PM »
Jim, you are exactly right. Any time you try to master any craft there are certain practices and principals that were long ago established and with good reason. I also agree with you about the idea that nothing is wrong and every idea is good. Most ideas are manure and only a few are pearls. Sad fact of life, but it's true and I don't think it will ever change, no matter how much time goes by.
In my opinion you need a steady tough bench if you want to be a craftsman, but something else will do if you are a hobbyist.
Eric Smith

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Work benches for building rifles
« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2012, 07:55:18 PM »
........ there are often methods that are most efficient and produce the best results.  These are the methods that developed and were refined over the hundreds of years when these guns were produced as a necessary usefull item and in an efficient manner.  These are the techniques to attempt to home in on in my view.  They work best, and produce results that are appropriate to the product being created. 

Jim

"Best" is at best a subjective term.  You state that your methods echo those developed over hundreds of years but perhaps it would be hard to argue that JP Beck or Andrew Verner or George Schroyer or Isaac Berlin had 1200 pound benches with ball vises on them.  Your methods and approaches allow for the most accurate, precise work but are clearly not required for producing fine Kentucky rifles in the manner and style in which originals were made, no matter how strongly you state it.

Rich,

Another question...  When did I say my methods echo those developed over hundreds of years?  Also, how can you speak to my methods when you know very little if anything about them?  Seems you are making assumptions to fit a point you are trying to make.

Jim