Author Topic: .54 Barrel question  (Read 21938 times)

roundball

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Re: .54 Barrel question
« Reply #25 on: March 08, 2012, 02:40:00 AM »
IMO, for every so called horror story about Pyrodex, there are thousands upon thousands of correct and successful uses of it and that's undeniable.

I myself used 50+ pounds of it during my caplock years before switching to Flintlocks and Goex.
My solution with Pyrodex was simple...just as it is with Goex:
100% proper cleaning
100% proper drying
100% proper lubing
Bores were still like mirrors 10 years later.

So I'll be from Missouri that a barrel simply goes away due to using a certain powder.
They go away if they are not 100% properly cleaned, dried, and lubed.
I don't mean 95% cleaned, or 98% cleaned...I mean 100%...period.
Think about it...if there is "zero" residue left, by definition there is nothing left to corrode the steel.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2012, 02:41:37 AM by roundball »

frontier gander

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Re: .54 Barrel question
« Reply #26 on: March 08, 2012, 02:50:53 AM »
been using good ol pyrodex since 1999 and never had an issue with it. Goex ive had issues where my barrels will lightly rust in the bores after cleaning a few days down the road. I figured that was my fault for not getting all the moisture out.

Birchwood casey gun scrubber down the bore after initial cleaning/drying and zero trouble with any powder since then.

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: .54 Barrel question
« Reply #27 on: March 08, 2012, 01:44:23 PM »
Real black powder is all I have ever used and rank these perchlorated powders right up there with aluminum butt plates and other modern gimmicks. The substitute powders fill a need that never existed and still doesn't.

Bob Roller

Offline Roger Fisher

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Re: .54 Barrel question
« Reply #28 on: March 08, 2012, 05:35:24 PM »
As long as there is real black powder around,you need NO artificial powders.
The stuff IS destructive and I know for a fact that it is not always possible to clean a barrel properly. Several years ago,I raised the question about perchlorated powders on the <BP-L>list and because it was considered as a genuine inquiry,the moderators allowed it. There were a number of VERY knowledgeable people that posted answers about the destructive nature of these powders but the really interesting one was that the fumes or smoke are LETHAL and if you want to dispatch yourself,simply get into a pantry or closet and ignite a cup of this stuff and you will quietly leave this life without making a horrible mess to be cleaned up.
REAL black powder can be shipped to your door so there is NO GOOD reason to consider this artficial stuff.
   The next subject is "stiff"springs. They are a guaranteed nasty experience waiting to happen.
A spring must be able to flex in both the lower and the upper limbs to work properly and this alone will eleminate a "stiff"spring. There IS a difference between a strong spring and a "stiff" spring but the lock mechanism MUST be designed to accomodate the strong spring.
NONE of them are desgned for a "stiff: spring.
I have seen and had phone calls from people who bought some of the first locks with cast mainsprings wanting me to make new forged springs and I didn't want the work nor the bitching about having to pay for the time it takes to make one. On locks with linked mainsprings,the link or claw,usually the claw on the spring would break due to stiff materials being used in them and then the spring came down hard and took a strip of wood out from under the lock mortise.I saw a picture of such an event and it was a spectacular stock with more stripes per inch than I ever saw.
The current discussion on frizzen springs and rebounders that break flints is interesting.
I have in my hand as I write this,a Jim Chambers late Ketland. I made a linked mechanism for it and have no problem with rebounds.The flint is a white agate from Guenter Stifter in Germany of about 5/8" and it impacts the frizzen about 1/2"below the top and does its scraping and releases about 1/4"from the pan cover. It throws more than enough sparks and NO rebounds at all that can be seen with the naked eye. I have made 4 of these locks and there is nothing wrong with them that has been reported. I think they may be a bit picky as to positioning the flint and in this case it is flat side up. One thing about these German agates,you can tell which side IS the flat side and they are uniform in size.
Enough for now.
 
Bob Roller
 
Young fella you are truly an asset to this site and thank you.   I have also seen 2 barrels ruined by the Pyrodex - not mine happily....

Daryl

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Re: .54 Barrel question
« Reply #29 on: March 08, 2012, 05:56:54 PM »
RB - that's a lot of people happily using Pyrodex - I do think it's also quite an exaggeration - thousands and thousands for every barrel ruined? That isn't possible, considering we know that many hundreds have been ruined - which is actually undeniable.  of course, anyone can deny anything, so nothing is undeniable.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2012, 06:01:08 PM by Daryl »

frontier gander

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Re: .54 Barrel question
« Reply #30 on: March 08, 2012, 06:00:49 PM »
A lot of people have ruined their flintlocks by using goex.

The misguided are always going to ruin it because for some of them, its just another season to hunt and they have no knowledge whatsoever about muzzle loading.

Flinter

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Re: .54 Barrel question
« Reply #31 on: March 08, 2012, 08:56:26 PM »
A lot of people have ruined their flintlocks by using goex.

The misguided are always going to ruin it because for some of them, its just another season to hunt and they have no knowledge whatsoever about muzzle loading.

Why would Goex ruin a flintlock? Would this be from improper cleaning or from not using a rod bore guide while loading?



Mike

frontier gander

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Re: .54 Barrel question
« Reply #32 on: March 08, 2012, 10:46:43 PM »
I spoke with Chris Hodgdon last year about this and he just laughed it off and said that he answers hundreds of emails from people asking if pyrodex is as corrosive as their goex powder. It is NO MORE corrosive than Goex powder. If you don't clean the fouling from the bore with either powders, they will both eat your barrel.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: .54 Barrel question
« Reply #33 on: March 08, 2012, 11:33:18 PM »
RB - that's a lot of people happily using Pyrodex - I do think it's also quite an exaggeration - thousands and thousands for every barrel ruined? That isn't possible, considering we know that many hundreds have been ruined - which is actually undeniable.  of course, anyone can deny anything, so nothing is undeniable.

I have never talked to a professional in the field of BP firearms that would agree with RBs assessment.
The idea that chlorate powders are no more corrosive than BP is laughable and is easily debunked with simple tests anyone can conduct. But nobody seems to want to try it.


There  are many discussions on this site those who are interested should read:
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=8283.0
specifically Mad Monk.

The reply 19 here again MM
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=3986.15
And others by him

Then http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=8283.msg78777#msg78777
More MM posts.

then
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=8057.0

There are others but lunch is long over....
Polish a steel bar or sheet  about s foot long x 2" to give a uniform finish that has no remaining oil or grease.
Cover one end and flash maybe 10 grains of BP on the other end, now cover the BP fouling and flash a similar amount of Pyrodex on the other. Age 2-3 weeks in a dry place, like a shelf in a shop perhaps.
Then check for corrosion.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: .54 Barrel question
« Reply #34 on: March 08, 2012, 11:54:09 PM »
Lynton McKenzie did the sxs test with a set of barrels that had been reamed too much in the process of trying to get rid of pits. He fired Pyrodex on one side and Goex BP on the other and at the end of the week,the Pyrodex side had been destroyed by corrosion and the BP side could have been saved IF the barrels had been worth saving to begin with. As I said earlier,black powder can be delivered to the front door and there is NO need for artificials to even be considered.
The answers those chemists gave on BP-L were real eye openers to me and I am grateful to the list owner for allowing the discussion when it was prohibited to begin with. Sometimes,a sincere inquiry and a real "want to know" attitude will work wonders.

Bob Roller

Paul Griffith

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Re: .54 Barrel question
« Reply #35 on: March 09, 2012, 12:50:18 AM »
Back 10 or more years ago I had a chunk gun load consisting of 20 grs of pistol pyrodex on the bottom & 100grs of pyrodex "select"?? (I think that's the right word, it's been a while) on top.

If I cleaned right it was no problem. My gut feeling is that if left uncleaned it would get ugly. For whatever that's worth. If we drug a gun home on a rope behind our truck it would screw it up also. So we don't. We clean BP or pyrodex properly & there ain't no problem.

Most of the war stories start with a barrel left uncleaned from last years hunting. And of course the thing is junk. I've seen both BP & pyro. where this year long abuse destroyed a gun.

Daryl

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Re: .54 Barrel question
« Reply #36 on: March 09, 2012, 02:34:44 AM »
Keep it civil, boys and girls.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: .54 Barrel question
« Reply #37 on: March 09, 2012, 07:27:47 AM »
Back 10 or more years ago I had a chunk gun load consisting of 20 grs of pistol pyrodex on the bottom & 100grs of pyrodex "select"?? (I think that's the right word, it's been a while) on top.

If I cleaned right it was no problem. My gut feeling is that if left uncleaned it would get ugly. For whatever that's worth. If we drug a gun home on a rope behind our truck it would screw it up also. So we don't. We clean BP or pyrodex properly & there ain't no problem.

Most of the war stories start with a barrel left uncleaned from last years hunting. And of course the thing is junk. I've seen both BP & pyro. where this year long abuse destroyed a gun.

I would bet, based on my experience, the barrel shot with Chlorate powder to any extent can be identified as such by looking IF the observer knows what to look for. The "dwell time" between shots is enough, over time, to cause problems.
If the stuff is cleaned like for BP I KNOW the barrel will show it if used much.
Debreeching or borescope would tell the tale. Its POSSIBLE that the barrel is unpitted but I would bet that it was. Often its very tiny craters when magnified that may not be noticed unless the observer knows what he is looking at with the naked eye. Once the observer understands what he is looking at its instantly identifiable.

Proponents just love to assume that the people failed to clean the gun correctly. While I am sure this is the case in some instances. Its not the case in ALL and conscientious bore cleaners still have problems.
A guy I know pretty well shot the stuff in an original 1869 TD in 50-70. It took a YEAR to stop the after rust. He finally stripped the barreled action from the wood and took it in the shower and heavily flushed it and he got the salts washed away and it finally quit rusting.
He was highly experienced at the time, probably 20 years ago, and certainly was no neophyte.
People that think the stuff is no worse than BP need to look at the various military rifles shot with milspec corrosive primers. These have perhaps a 1/10 of a grain of "active ingredient" Potassium Chlorate the chlorate powders are 17% +- Potassium PERchlorate. Both of which produce virtually the same result on steel. It destroys the iron at the molecular level and will even eat "crawdad holes" in barrels and breeches. This has ALL been seen in disassembled firearms since the advent of this stuff.
For reference I have owned and or worked on rifles that were shot with BP and not cleaned for an entire Silhouette match to preserve a consistent bore condition. This means being left "dirty" for several hours at time. These barrels do not rust. I know of guns that have been in service for long periods and shot 10s of thousands of rounds with BP loads and the bores are still perfect.
This simply is not possible with powders with Chlorate components. The fouling is just too aggressive and difficult to remove adequately. Wiping between shots may actually increase the problem unless ALL the fouling is removed as soon as the wiping is started. Wetting the stuff activates it. Even Hoppe's original #9 (not 9 Plus) will cause it to pit a barrel seriously if left uncleaned overnight with #9 in the bore. A common practice with non-corrosive powders.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline bob in the woods

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Re: .54 Barrel question
« Reply #38 on: March 09, 2012, 07:54:28 AM »
I'm with Dan. Back in 94, I wrote to Sam Fadala about the troubles I was having with P.
Clean the gun, then come back the next day, and get a dirty patch, clean till patch comes out OK
Next day......same thing, a dirty patch. I did that for 4 days, saving the first patch down the bore and stapling it to a sheet of paper . You could see the progression as the patches got lighter [cleaner]. The 5th days patch still showed colour .  Sam told me that he had heard similar stories. Something about the stuff getting into the pores of the metal [ for lack of a better description ]   I shot at matches every 2nd week, and cleaned my gun when I got home an hour or 2 later. That probably didn't help. When I switched to Goex, I no longer had the problem. If you are using P. , I;d make sure you clean really really well,.....and then do it again in a day or 2

frontier gander

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Re: .54 Barrel question
« Reply #39 on: March 09, 2012, 08:16:58 AM »
my pyrodex bores are a squeaky clean as when they were new. Learn how to clean your muzzy.

Offline James Wilson Everett

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Re: .54 Barrel question
« Reply #40 on: March 09, 2012, 11:02:07 AM »
Guys,

I have used Pyrodex CTG in my BP cartridge guns a lot and have experienced some pretty bad corrosion problems. Iit seems that anywhere the smoke from this stuff comes in contact with metal, there is a potential for some serious problems.  Since then I have gotten both older and wiser and have repented of substitute BP and now only use the real stuff.

Jim

dannybb55

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Re: .54 Barrel question
« Reply #41 on: March 09, 2012, 02:41:24 PM »
Pyrodex is for in lines and muzzleloaders built on an M 4 lower receiver. Why are we worried about what we build if we don't care what we feed these Longrifles? Next ya"ll will be extolling the virtues of polyester patches, Lead substitutes and Picanniny rails for buckhorn sights.
                     Danny

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: .54 Barrel question
« Reply #42 on: March 09, 2012, 02:52:39 PM »
Jim,
You have discovered another way to brown a barrel. Levity aside,does anyone want to breathe these fumes? Being a bonehead when it comes to remembering dates,I don't recall the year I posted that inquiry to BP-L about perclorated powders but maybe I can find it again. One of the replies I got was that the fumes can be bad news. There is enough of that with out inflicting it on ourselves.

Bob Roller

Offline LH

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Re: .54 Barrel question
« Reply #43 on: March 09, 2012, 05:07:21 PM »
I'll get in my lick on this dead horse by saying that I satisfied myself not too long after Pyrodex came out that it was not something for me.  Extreme spreads of 200fps or more depending on ambient and gun temperature, hard to light,  etc,  but the single thing that convinced me to never use it was a test done using a hawkeye borescope.  Before and after pictures showed a mirror-like bore turned into something like 800grit emery paper after just 50 rounds.    Now,  that rifle would probably still shoot good enough that nobody would notice the difference shooting offhand or even from a bench with open sights,  but I aint gonna put nothin in my barrel that I believe will eat it up.  Besides,  black powder is so much more consistent and usable in terms of accuracy and performance that I have no need to try to fix something that aint broke.   :)   

Offline bob in the woods

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Re: .54 Barrel question
« Reply #44 on: March 09, 2012, 05:20:42 PM »
Frontier, I know how to clean my guns. At my age, I also have learned that it is pretty much a waste of time trying to change anyone's mind, so I no longer try.  I simply gave the details of my experience with P.
I don't think that anyone can deny that P. requires a more aggressive cleaning procedure than B.P.
Regarding the "smoke" when firing P. - if you read Mad Monk's postings, you will see that what you are breathing contains cyanide.  
You are obviously very happy with the results you get with the stuff,and that is fine.  But that does not change the facts re the components/characteristics of P.  
One thing which is not often discussed is the accuracy potential of the various powders. At the usual  muzzleloader distances, there are those whoclaim great accuracy with P.   Perhaps the greatest test of accuracy potential is the 1000 yd  matches. I have shot in these matches with both muzzleloaders and BPCR and I am not aware of anyone who has ever done well with P.   I tried it in my .45-100 and finally got half decent groups by duplexing with 4 gr of 4227.   But it was not close to the accuracy I get with black p.    Case life was also drastically reduced.
If P was all I could get, I would use it, but not by choice.
Have fun.


Offline Dphariss

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Re: .54 Barrel question
« Reply #45 on: March 09, 2012, 05:33:07 PM »
Jim,
You have discovered another way to brown a barrel. Levity aside,does anyone want to breathe these fumes? Being a bonehead when it comes to remembering dates,I don't recall the year I posted that inquiry to BP-L about perclorated powders but maybe I can find it again. One of the replies I got was that the fumes can be bad news. There is enough of that with out inflicting it on ourselves.

Bob Roller

Mad Monk states that Cyanide gas is a byproduct of combustion.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Dphariss

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Re: .54 Barrel question
« Reply #46 on: March 09, 2012, 06:13:47 PM »
my pyrodex bores are a squeaky clean as when they were new. Learn how to clean your muzzy.

If you lived in Montana or Wyoming we might meet and I could look at your bores with some 10-20 power magnification. Honestly, and I have been down this path with others, many, people, most it would seem, will not notice the damage done by chlorate powders until it becomes extreme. Or until someone points to the pits and says "these are pits from chlorate powder use". Potassium Perchlorate in this case. They start out microscopic and only a subtle change in the appearance of the material is the give away to the naked eye.
Typically extensive use of perchlorate powders will make it difficult to impossible to shoot BP without wiping every shot.
I started shooting MLs 10 years before you were born. I have used perchlorate powder in "company guns" (before you were born) when I was working in the BPCR industry but never in my own. Having worked in the BP firearms industry in one way or another for decades I don't feel that being lectured on the cleaning of barrels  by someone with limited experience is appropriate.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Dphariss

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Re: .54 Barrel question
« Reply #47 on: March 09, 2012, 06:24:23 PM »
Frontier, I know how to clean my guns. At my age, I also have learned that it is pretty much a waste of time trying to change anyone's mind, so I no longer try.  I simply gave the details of my experience with P.
I don't think that anyone can deny that P. requires a more aggressive cleaning procedure than B.P.
Regarding the "smoke" when firing P. - if you read Mad Monk's postings, you will see that what you are breathing contains cyanide.  
You are obviously very happy with the results you get with the stuff,and that is fine.  But that does not change the facts re the components/characteristics of P.  
One thing which is not often discussed is the accuracy potential of the various powders. At the usual  muzzleloader distances, there are those whoclaim great accuracy with P.   Perhaps the greatest test of accuracy potential is the 1000 yd  matches. I have shot in these matches with both muzzleloaders and BPCR and I am not aware of anyone who has ever done well with P.   I tried it in my .45-100 and finally got half decent groups by duplexing with 4 gr of 4227.   But it was not close to the accuracy I get with black p.    Case life was also drastically reduced.
If P was all I could get, I would use it, but not by choice.
Have fun.



Duplexing smokeless and Pryrodex or over compressing it is EXTREMELY dangerous.
Its not BP and duplexing may produce "pressure excusions" that might be very unpleasant even in a modern made gun. Over compressing also changes the burn rate and at least one vintage BPCR suffered a burst barrel from this.
10% duplex in a 45-70 with black will exceed Lyman's pressure limit for the TD Springfield and Pyrodex is a long way from BP in makeup.

It also becomes very "fast" I have been told of the moisture content drops below 1%.
It will also, according to the patent papers, function as an explosive at 20% water. IE as a slurry.
Its pretty strange stuff.
If no black were available for by BPCRs I would shoot smokeless and step the velocity up to 1600+.
If I could not get black for my FLs I would make it.
The trick, soon, will be buying lead for bullets. Its at the top of the hit list right now.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline bob in the woods

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Re: .54 Barrel question
« Reply #48 on: March 09, 2012, 07:48:10 PM »
Dan, Thanks for your posts. I don't recommend anyone duplex P.  and  I was extremely careful, [ x 10 ! ]  Never went over 4 g 4227 in a 45 2.6 case, and 1/16th compression. Not relevant to our Longrifle discussions anyway .....I only brought it up in regard to the accuracy potential. I guess my point is that the stuff is rather lacking in more than one regard. The only claim that can be made by those who champion it's use, is that it is easier to ship, and therefore more available in some areas.  That can be remedied with some planning and perhaps bulk purchasing.  Shipping aside, where I live,  P .is actually moe expensive than BP

Flinter

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Re: .54 Barrel question
« Reply #49 on: March 09, 2012, 10:02:14 PM »


Guys I got a custom barrel that someone put together for a TC Renegade. Zero markings on it. Great looking barrel with what looks like .008 - .010" deep rifling.

The problem I am having though is that the lands measured roughly .534" and the .530" round ball and .018 are impossible to get down this barrel. The patches come out clean after shooting, but by the time i beat the ball down into the throat of the bore, its pretty boogered up.

Some have said to try the .015" or even the .010" patches but I just don't know. That .534" land to land measurement just threw me off.

I even tried the hornady great plains bullets which are a little firm to load in the original factory barrel, but this custom barrel, holy cow! My hand was numb after beating on the short starter.

Thoughts?

You have a couple of choices.
 
Lee has .527 moulds at the below link.

http://www.cainsoutdoor.com/shop/item.asp?item=13124

Another is to buy an original T/C Renegade barrel that someone has taken off to put on a custom replacement. There may be someone that has such a barrel on this site.

Either way you should not have that much difficult loading a PRB down the barrel.