sideplate positioning

[The other DWS]

I have pretty well located the position for the main bolthole through the plug tang into the lock bolster.  I have some leeway as to the position of the sideplate in terms of rotation around that bolt.
If the rear point of a sideplate is too high or too low it can make the line of the rifle look ungainly--at least to my uneducated eyes.

Is there any rule-of-thumb,  like "aligned with the middle of the buttplate curve"  or is it purely a matter of taste?

Are there some "schools" that had a characteristic position?

Finally, on a relatively thick cast sideplate with some beveled edges, should, or how much, should the sideplate be inset into the wood

[Acer Saccharum]

Some original guns had such wonky sideplate positioning, it would be an embarrassment by today's standards. (Makes me question today's standards)

If you're making your own sideplate, you can position it very nicely and pick up the screw heads just so.

If you are using a ready made sideplate, your placement abilities are severely limited. Maybe you get lucky and everything lines up just so.

This leads me back to my thought about original work: did builders use ready made plates, rather than spend the time to make a plate to fit the gun?

[Acer Saccharum]

inlet to the bevel.

Also take great care in getting good wood to metal fit under the screw heads. This will keep the plate flat when the screws are tightened.

I can't tell you how many guns I've seen with the sideplate kicked out of its inlet because of poor support under the screw heads.

[Tom Currie]

With your top bolt in first usually you usually have little wiggle room as the front bolt needs to hit the web as cleanly as possible, leaving the tail to end up wherever it lays. If it's close to center than your in decent shape. Otherwise...

Making your own sideplate form a 1/8 inch thick piece of scrap brass allows you to put that tail wherever you want it. It's also pretty easy and  makes your build a bit more custom that it would be with the stock sideplate.

[timM]

"Some original guns had such wonky sideplate positioning, it would be an embarrassment by today's standards. (Makes me question today's standards)"

It would seem that in our time we expect a greater degree of symmetry and balance.  I also believe that this concept was not as compelling to our forefathers.

Look at some of the great rifles by accomplished masters and this will in many cases prove out.  Not only side plates, but lock panels and decorative details.  Judiciously used a lack of symmetry has been a pleasing tool in many art forms.

Recently the ALR "Library" has been graced with two fantastic Peter Berry rifles that show his trademark patchbox positioning.  I have also seen contemporary renditions of his work where that positioning has been "fixed"  Respectfully    tim

[Long John]

I generally make my own side plates just because pre-made side plates assume a particular rate of curvature in the lock/wrist region.  I think that a rifle looks best when the aft end of the side plate is centered on the curved line that extends from the center of mass of the lock flats through the wrist and on to the butt.  As I am laying a rifle out I draw a line that is centered on the wrist and extend that curve up to and across the lock flat.  The end of the side plate, lock flat and beavertail all get centered on that line.   

Many of the original rifles have side plates that are off-center, tilted, almost breaking through the edge of the lock flat, etc.  I have pondered this too.  It has led me to suspect, like Acer, that sometimes the old-time makers were assembling rifles with pre-made, perhaps even purchased components.

Best Regards,

John Cholin

[Dphariss]

I generally make my own side plates just because pre-made side plates assume a particular rate of curvature in the lock/wrist region.  I think that a rifle looks best when the aft end of the side plate is centered on the curved line that extends from the center of mass of the lock flats through the wrist and on to the butt.  As I am laying a rifle out I draw a line that is centered on the wrist and extend that curve up to and across the lock flat.  The end of the side plate, lock flat and beavertail all get centered on that line.   

Many of the original rifles have side plates that are off-center, tilted, almost breaking through the edge of the lock flat, etc.  I have pondered this too.  It has led me to suspect, like Acer, that sometimes the old-time makers were assembling rifles with pre-made, perhaps even purchased components.

Best Regards,

John Cholin

I am sure they used "store bought" parts at times.  Considering that Reeves Goehring told me that his #10 buttplate, from an original VA rifle, is the same as one on a Dickert.

Some of the parts may have even arrived engraved from Europe.

Dan

[Dphariss]

We also have to consider guns stocked by Apprentices.
I strongly suspect they would still be marked with the masters name if they came from his shop.

I also do not attempt the mimic ugly guns. If they have problems that bad why would I want to recreate it unless I feel I need and excuse?
Maybe some of their contemporaries thought it was ugly too?
Most can be corrected pretty easily in making an interpretation which is what almost everything we make is anyway.

Dan

[flehto]

Usually no problem w/ the rear lockbolt location asre the sideplate, but the front lockbolt sometimes doesn't allow a sideplate location that is optimum. or one that looks like it belongs. I drill for  both lockbolts and then clamp a 1/8" thick piece of brass on the sideplate side and transfer the hole locations w/ the back end of a size drill ground to a centerpunch. A circle is scribed around each centerpunch and then the rear  portion of the sideplate is drawn so that that the "tail" centers on the finished sideplate  panel shape. Then the forward portion of the sideplate is drawn between the 2 bolt holes. Most of the time, some semblance of the sideplate "fitting" nicely  into the sideplate panel  is achieved, sepecially if the bottom line of the sideplate follows the bottom line of the panel. Hopefully, the sideplate will be more than a "washer" for 2 bolts....Fred

[Swampwalker]

DWS, I usually shape the buttstock up through the lock panels before I worry about the side plate.  Once the lock and side plate panel are shaped, positioning the sideplate is easy - you ancor through the topbolt and move the plate around to the position it looks best (assuming you are not using a front lock bolt, and  are using a pre-cut side plate).

[smart dog]

Hi Acer,
I think makers did use store-bought hardware but they also probably made several sets of hardware up at a time.  If casting some parts or jigging up sheet metal, it might have been more efficient to make several copies at the same time.  Keep the copies on hand and use them when needed.  On many English guns you often see identical side plates indicating they were probably cast in batches and sold to different gunmakers.  The other key point is that the makers were trying to make money and time was, and still is, money.  I think they hurried on some pieces not worrying too much about perfect placement, shape, or fitting to get the gun out the door and get paid.

dave   

[Bernard]

I believe the side plate placement is important to the overall appearance of the finished project. Taking into consideration the Greek Golden Mean I try to size and position my side plates to achieve the best visual result. The rifle is at once a functional arm and a work  of art.
If you are using preformed side plates make sure it is sized correctly for the lock you are using. Forward bolt to bolster bolt distance is critical here. The bolster bolt can be angled down slightly if need be to allow the positioning of the side plate lower. the forward bolt must pass between the barrel and the ram rod hole and if the rifle has been properly laid out there should not be much more than 3/16 inch between the bottom of the barrel channel and the top of the ram rod hole. You might be able to bend the side plate a bit to get the heel lower or higher.
I usually make my own based on original designs. found a real nice one at Dixon's Fair a couple of years back and have used it as a pattern a couple of times already.
Take some time to get it right in your eyes and it'll probably look right to everyone else.