P Powell and sons

[SROG]

Greetings.  A search on site tells me no facts about this gunmaker.  Was curious if anyone has information.  Following is a brief description.  I HAVE found some information on an auction website and other places about this maker ( catalogs perhaps available).

Side by side 12 caplock

Hooked breech, standard single key mount

The firearm was " repaired " by stick welding the barrels underside close to the breech (and perhaps more hidden).  I am capable of removing said welds and conduction heating the rest to break solder that may or may not remain.   I have a friend that perhaps can help me in a replacement barrel set.  The locks were rusty and loose but after a cleanup appear to be 100 %.

My question would be, does anyone have information regarding this maker ? (thinks before he modifies or fixes the bad fix ).  Sorry no current camera.

Thanks

[G-Man]

The Powell firm was a well known Cincinnati, Ohio gunmaker from the 1830s until after the turn of the 20th century.   The firm went through several variations of the P. Powell and Sons name over the decades.  Others who have more knowledge of Cincinnati made guns could probably tell you more.

Good luck

Guy

[Avlrc]

There is about two pages of info on the history of Powell in Volume II of Ohio Gunsmith & Allied Tradesmen.
Here is a lil bit of it.
1860 Palmon Powell 56 was born in Maryland, wife Susanna, 46 born in Maryland.4 children and 2 other men living the house. Probably gunstore employees. Cincinnati, Ward 4/

1829 February opened gunstore in Cincinnati OH
 
1850 census differs a lil from the 1860 , Palmon Powel 45 , born in PA, wife 33 born in NJ. Ward 4 C. Ohio.

1850 Manufactures , Index. Powell had 1200 dollars invested in his business. Employed 5 hands at a total of 140 dollars per month. He purchased 5 tons of iron at 250 dollars and 100 dollars of wood. Made 150 rifles at total value at $3000 and a unknown amount of pistols & repairs at $340.

 There is much more on him. But I get tired of trying to type it. If you are interested in Ohio Guns get yourself a set of the Ohio Books,  www.aolrc.org  Hope this helps some..

[smokinbuck]

Like Hudson and Siebert, Powell imported many of his SXS's as well as his pistols from England and Belgium. Some were brought over as complete guns and some were stocked after they got here and marked with their names. Their names are usually found on both the locks and barrels, unless a commercial lock, such as Golcher, was used. If they have been taken care of they are normally a sound piece. I have both a pistol and SXS from Siebert and both are shooters.
Mark

[SROG]

indeed thank you folks.  The books will be on the list.  Imported.  Interesting.  the proof marks on the barrels will tell me more once I research them further.  ALL these things take time which is hart to come by.  Smartest move was registering here.  Once again, thanks.

Will modify and save another post.  Interesting that the right barrel is stamped      " 12 " and the left barrel is stamped " 13 ".  3 separate proofmarks on each barrel which I am attempting to research here:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/58610387/Proof-Marks

hope nothing wrong with posting this link.

Once again, thank you.

[JV Puleo]

If the barrels are proofed they were not made here (there being no American proof law) ... not surprising as practically no SxS barrels were. An oval with the letters "LEG" is Belgian. Crossed scepters surmounted by a crown, one with the letters BPC and the other with the letter V, are Birmingham proofs. If the gun is pre-CW it is most likely a B'ham product. Post-CW is more likely to be Belgian but this is not a certainty... its just that before the war B'ham was the biggest supplier. It would have been absolutely conventional to order a batch of guns with the "Powell" name engraved on them... this is how the B'ham trade worked.

I think your proof mark reference is too new... though the old marks will be similar.

For purely economic reasons, very few, if any, SxS shotguns were actually made here. It was far more lucrative to import them as no American maker could compete on price.

[SROG]

I have a fair knowledge of steel and the differences between it and wrought iron.  Without the books in my possession, I will ask a few general questions if you don't mind. 

IS there a definitive text available to tell us the materials used for barrels and furniture (inc locks) pre-Bessimer and post Bessimer (which this firearm could indeed fall into both catagories ) ?

Is there also documentation available as to when mass produced wood screws were available ?  The wood screw heads on this gun appear machine made.  The machine screws on this gun appear to be hand made (albeit with a machine ).  ALL screw heads are engraved.

Once again, thank you for the help.

[JV Puleo]

The book you probably want is "Fighting Iron" by the late Art Gogan. The subject, as least regarding shotgun barrels, is also discussed in "The Gun" by W.W. Greener. There is a reprint of his 10th edition out there but I prefer (as far as this subject is concerned) the 1st edition, by his father, W. Greener. I downloaded that from google books but they probably don't allow that any longer.

That said, you probably have a B'ham made gun and, as such, virtually all of the parts were made by specialists. This was true, if primitive, mass production. Each worker made only one or two small parts and they made them to established sizes with specialized tools. This practice goes back to at least the 18th century and probably to the 17th century. Thus... there will be no identifiable features that can be associated with a particular workman. The name on a gun is invariably that of the person who organized making it or of the dealer who ordered it. We've practically no specific knowledge of any of the people who physically made or decorated the bits and each gun probably includes the work of dozens of individuals.

[SROG]

JV, indeed thank you for the book suggestions and the quick walk through what was the way of the times.

Understanding the system is I guess the key.  The locks are marked " P Powell and sons ".  Initially I thought this was the lock maker of course.  Research led me here.  These back action locks (similar in nature ) appear on other firearms in pictures I have seen.  I guess understanding that an American concern could order parts from England ( and apparently have the locks marked with HIS name ) and then assemble and/or stock on this continent is an interesting thing for us today.

Rolling and slitting mills did indeed exist in these times.  I would be interested in knowledge of tubing mills.  Guess I really should search more ( and indeed look through the books suggested to me on this thread ) regarding this subject.  I have friends that have welded a barrel (wrought, straight seam ) with success.  Further research into the Brown Bess barrel manufacture would perhaps give me more of an idea of what technology existed maybe a hundred years prior to this gun.  My thoughts are that this barrel set is indeed wrought rather than steel but I have been wrong several times today already.  I have tests that myself or others can perform to confirm or deny this.  The thing is, I have an antique that uniquely presents itself to be tested ( since some fool has ruined it with a stick welder ).  I hate to further destroy it but perhaps cutting an inch off the muzzles would give me test materials to send to my connections in the college lab metallurgical department ( State College that will test for me ).

Thanks for reading and continued interest.

[JV Puleo]

Metallurgical analysis would certainly be interesting, but I doubt it would tell us much we don't already know about the processes and materials used. By the middle of the 19th century these things were pretty well documented. The only real problem is translating the technical terms they used into modern scientific terminology. "Fighting Iron" goes a long way to doing that as Mr. Gogan was a professional metallurgist (as was his father, I think). At best you'd get a good analysis of what your barrel was made of and that might suggest the quality of the job in the first place but that is a question much more easily addressed by an examination of the gun itself. I'm only saying this as a caution not to spend too much time on a subject that has already been thoroughly examined by professionals...
I don't think you'll get anywhere using this as a dating procedure... especially as most twist shotgun barrels contained both iron and steel...it was the fact that they oxidized at different rates that gives the finished barrel its "twist" pattern... but the materials and mix of materials changed depending on the taste of the maker and the intended quality of the product so, at best, you'll only know what your barrel was made of. I'm not even certain if you could differentiate between something like Bessemer steel (post-1850) and crucible steel made by the Huntsman process (post 1750)... especially given that the formulas used for mixing the charge were closely held secrets by individual steel masters. They achieved a considerable level of quality and consistency in their products but did it using empirical methods. I think it would be safe to say that before the last decade of the 19th century, most steel masters weren't exactly sure what was in their product...they only knew what worked.

[SROG]

(chuckle), your last sentence says a lot. 

Myself and a friend (Guy is his name) were chatting on the phone the other day regarding barrel raw materials used in manufacture.  Knowing that both damascus and solid wrought were used in the process ( and yes some crucible steel ), the conclusion made by us was that perhaps the better barrels were solid wrought (in antiquity).  This may seem like a blanket statement I suppose.  Guy is in his 80's and has many years forge experience compared to mine.  We of course welcome any further documentation of facts and indeed enjoy learning. 

I was gifted ( a few years ago ) a book by the H.M. Byers Company regarding wrought iron production in the waning years in the U.S.A. .  Following the development of the electron microscope, definite age samples of wrought were subjected to tests.  Interesting results.

Point taken on the wasting time on already analyzed things in the books.  I should read up yes. 

[SROG]

Will see if I can post a couple of pictures once I figure out the chain of events necessary.

[T*O*F]

Interesting that the right barrel is stamped      " 12 " and the left barrel is stamped " 13 ".

This is not uncommon....one barrel for close shooting and one for farther off.  It is the same principle as a modern gun being choked modified and improved.