Author Topic: Threads on Screw Tip horns  (Read 19073 times)

George F.

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Threads on Screw Tip horns
« on: July 05, 2008, 03:53:57 PM »
I was curious for some day I would like to make a horn with a screw tip, what is used to cut the threads on a horn?  ...Geo.

Offline Tim Crosby

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Re: Threads on Screw Tip horns
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2008, 12:27:07 AM »
A 5/8 X 11 NC tap and die seems to work best for me..

 Tim C.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2008, 08:26:56 PM by Tim Crosby »

Offline David Rase

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Re: Threads on Screw Tip horns
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2008, 05:40:47 AM »
A 5/8 X 13 NC tap and die seems to work best for me..

 Tim C.
Tim,
Sure that isn't a 5/8-11 thread?  A lot of the original horn used 7, 8 or 9 tpi depending upon which county and horn shop they came from.
DMR

George F.

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Re: Threads on Screw Tip horns
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2008, 02:19:26 PM »
So you use NC threads, what about NPT. Are they courser than NC threads, and do they have a size around 5/8" ?

Offline Dale Halterman

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Re: Threads on Screw Tip horns
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2008, 04:34:04 PM »
My first thought is that pipe threads are tapered, so they seal tight with compound or tape. Works fine in threading a pipe into a fitting, but if you need to bring a flat on your plug up tight to a flat on the horn it may not work well. Threads may come up tight before the flats meet, or if the threads are too deep it might be loose.

If you want to try it, remember that pipe sizes up to 14" go by ID, not OD, so for 5/8 OD you probably want 3/8 or 1/2 NPT.

Dale H

Offline DutchGramps

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Re: Threads on Screw Tip horns
« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2008, 05:50:09 PM »
Pipe thread is not always tapered, as far as I know only on prefab fittings. I have taps and dies for most pipe sizes, the 5/8" BSP is 14tpi, but I use the BSW (the old Witworth coarse) on most ALR and old European work: 5/8" x 11tpi for breech plugs, and 1/8"x 40tpi, 5/32"x32tpi and 3/16"x24tpi for locks. I have no experience in using them on powder horns. These old taps and dies are easy to find in the Old World; if anybody needs something, just ask!
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Offline Ky-Flinter

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Re: Threads on Screw Tip horns
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2008, 06:56:10 PM »
Woodcraft sells wood threading kits in 1/2 x 8 tpi, 3/4 x 6 tpi, etc. but they seemed kinda pricey to me since I was only wanting to experiment with threading horn.  I bought a 5/8 x 11 NC tap and die at NAPA and they worked fine for me.

-Ron
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Offline Tim Crosby

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Re: Threads on Screw Tip horns
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2008, 08:26:29 PM »
A 5/8 X 13 NC tap and die seems to work best for me..

 Tim C.
Tim,
Sure that isn't a 5/8-11 thread?  A lot of the original horn used 7, 8 or 9 tpi depending upon which county and horn shop they came from.
DMR

 Yes, my mistake, it is 5/8 X 11. I use a 1/2 X 13 for base plugs. Thanks Dave for correcting me.

Tim C.

Offline Tim Crosby

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Re: Threads on Screw Tip horns
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2008, 08:31:42 PM »
Woodcraft sells wood threading kits in 1/2 x 8 tpi, 3/4 x 6 tpi, etc. but they seemed kinda pricey to me since I was only wanting to experiment with threading horn.  I bought a 5/8 x 11 NC tap and die at NAPA and they worked fine for me.

-Ron

 The problem with the Woodcraft wood tap is that it has to be thru taped and you only want it about 3/4" into the tip. There is probably a way to modify them but the others have worked for me so I just left well enough alone.

Tim C.

ironwolf

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Re: Threads on Screw Tip horns
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2008, 11:45:28 PM »
  Handled a York county original this weekend. It had threads around 5/8", but with a fine pitch.  Probably close to the now common 5/8-18 NF threads.
  The one I made wound op with 5/8-11 NC threads;

   Kevin

George F.

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Re: Threads on Screw Tip horns
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2008, 01:43:41 AM »
Thank you all so much for the info. Hope to meet  some of you folks at Dixon's ....Geo.

Online Dphariss

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Re: Threads on Screw Tip horns
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2008, 03:48:54 AM »
My first thought is that pipe threads are tapered, so they seal tight with compound or tape. Works fine in threading a pipe into a fitting, but if you need to bring a flat on your plug up tight to a flat on the horn it may not work well. Threads may come up tight before the flats meet, or if the threads are too deep it might be loose.

If you want to try it, remember that pipe sizes up to 14" go by ID, not OD, so for 5/8 OD you probably want 3/8 or 1/2 NPT.

Dale H

Tapered threads might jam tight and become a permanent attachment. That would be my worry anyway.

Dan
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Offline Randy Hedden

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Re: Threads on Screw Tip horns
« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2008, 06:30:34 PM »
While NPT, tapered pipe threads, would not be a viable option for making screw tip powder horns, NPS, or straight pipe threads, could be used. NPS pipe threads come in  different threads per inch than NC threads and, in some cases, might even be a better option than the NC threads.

Randy Hedden

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Offline davec2

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Re: Threads on Screw Tip horns
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2008, 07:15:59 PM »
In the past, I have tried threading horn with all types of standard taps and dies.  The taps work OK, but I have had a terrible time cutting clean male threads on horn materials due to its fibrous nature.  Even with a brand new, high quality, sharp die, the threads often tear or come out very ragged.  Do any of you have a picture of male threads on horn cut with a die?  I want to see if they look like the ones I have made or if I'm just being a clutz here.

Thanks
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Offline Ky-Flinter

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Re: Threads on Screw Tip horns
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2008, 07:55:56 PM »
davec2,

Sorry about the picture quality.  I don't think it's you (or we're both klutzes!)  Horn isn't the greatest material for taking threads.  I usually have some chip outs and rough places, especially in the male threads, but they still work unless really bad.



-Ron
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ironwolf

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Re: Threads on Screw Tip horns
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2008, 09:46:45 PM »
I've actually thought about using an adjustable die, opened up to make the threads loose.  Then hand fit with a thread file.  Whatcha  think.

Kevin W

Offline Randy Hedden

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Re: Threads on Screw Tip horns
« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2008, 05:05:08 AM »
Some screw tips on original horns appear to have been cut on a lathe. I have seen Roland Cadle do this a couple of times. I think that using a course thread threading die is the reason you see chipping and gouging of the horn. I have seen a lot of screw tip horns, but only a few with the tip removed. What I have seen are rather fine threads on the tips. I have never measured any for TPI, but they were certainly finer than 11 TPI.

I have only made two or three screw tip horns in my life and had trouble with chipping of the horn threads. If I were to do another, and I will, I would use a finer thread and make sure that I had an adjustable threading die like Ironwolf suggested. Back the die out to its largest size and adjust it back to regular size as you go. Since I have a full set of thread files I would probably refine the thread to fit with a thread file.

Another thought I have had is to heat the end of the horn, like when fitting the butt plug, and then use a threading die. The horn should be more pliable and therefore more resistant to chipping. 

Just a couple of ideas I have been thinking about for the next time I have to make a screw tip horn.

Randy Hedden

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Offline Tim Crosby

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Re: Threads on Screw Tip horns
« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2008, 04:54:23 PM »
  I have never had trouble cutting the threads on the body of the horn with the 5/8 X 11. I use bee's wax as a lube. I usually run the die down about 3/4 of the way and then screw on a 5/8-11 nut to finish the job. Go slow and only about an 1/8 of a turn than back it off a little, continue until it bottoms out.
 I have had trouble with some tips being a little loose after being screwed on to the body. To solve the problem I put a little J B Weld epoxy on the threads in the tip, put Vaseline on a 5/8-11 bolt, screw it in, let it dry over night, take it out and you have nice sharp threads. May not be PC but it works.

Tim C.   

Offline davec2

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Re: Threads on Screw Tip horns
« Reply #18 on: July 16, 2008, 07:00:57 PM »
Tim,

I have used a similar epoxy method for forming male threads and it works fine.  I have a horn I was given as a kid in the mid 1960's that has a Dixie Gun Works brass powder valve on the tip that I put on that way - filed down about a half an inch of the horn tip so that it would fit in the valve, lubricated the female fine thread in the base of the horn valve, smeared epoxy in the threads and on the end of the horn and then put the valve in place.  When the epoxy had cured, the valve screwed off and the threads were perfectly formed.  I had even dyed the epoxy to match the horn color so it is hard to tell the threads are not cut.  The horn is more than 40 years old now and the threads are still working.

This is another method that I have used.  Also not PC, although I did see an original horn once back in Maryland that had a similar threaded metal insert (that's where I got the idea).  This is a turned antler tip with a brass insert applied to a horn with a brass insert.






« Last Edit: January 05, 2020, 05:59:02 AM by davec2 »
"No man will be a sailor who has contrivance enough to get himself into a jail; for being in a ship is being in a jail, with the chance of being drowned... a man in a jail has more room, better food, and commonly better company."
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Offline Tim Crosby

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Re: Threads on Screw Tip horns
« Reply #19 on: July 16, 2008, 08:57:25 PM »
This is another method that I have used.  Also not PC, although I did see an original horn once back in Maryland that had a similar threaded metal insert (that's where I got the idea).  This is a turned antler tip with a brass insert applied to a horn with a brass insert.

I like that,you cannot see the brass once it is together. I'll have to give it a try.

 Tim C.


TENdriver

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Re: Threads on Screw Tip horns
« Reply #20 on: July 18, 2008, 02:43:51 AM »
I like this metal insert method but is there an issue with using steel threads with black powder or are the male threads non-ferrous?

Offline davec2

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Re: Threads on Screw Tip horns
« Reply #21 on: July 18, 2008, 03:16:57 AM »
Kevin,

All the metal parts are brass.  I only really do this to apply a different material to the tip of the horn.  Since I almost always put a 3/4 inch wooden threaded plug in the rear end of the horns I make, filling them with powder is never much of an issue.  The black horn posted above has the screw tip, but the base plug decorative cascabel also unscrews.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2008, 03:21:09 AM by davec2 »
"No man will be a sailor who has contrivance enough to get himself into a jail; for being in a ship is being in a jail, with the chance of being drowned... a man in a jail has more room, better food, and commonly better company."
Dr. Samuel Johnson, 1780

Offline davec2

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Re: Threads on Screw Tip horns
« Reply #22 on: July 18, 2008, 03:25:59 AM »
Like this:




« Last Edit: January 05, 2020, 05:59:17 AM by davec2 »
"No man will be a sailor who has contrivance enough to get himself into a jail; for being in a ship is being in a jail, with the chance of being drowned... a man in a jail has more room, better food, and commonly better company."
Dr. Samuel Johnson, 1780

Offline Tim Crosby

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Re: Threads on Screw Tip horns
« Reply #23 on: July 18, 2008, 04:34:32 PM »
 Alright Dave I gotta ask; what did you use to thread the 3/4 base? I use a
1/2 X 13. I like the way the 3/4 looks.

 Thanks, Tim C.

Offline davec2

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Re: Threads on Screw Tip horns
« Reply #24 on: July 18, 2008, 05:10:57 PM »
Tim,

I do it two ways.  You can use a 3/4 x 12 wood threading tap and die set.  The tap part is easy, but the die must be modified to cut much closer to a shoulder.  Even at that, I have to finish the last two threads by hand.  I turn the rough blank for the cascabel with a long 3/4 inch diameter section and just a 1 1/4 inch cylinder for the top.  The long 3/4 inch section is run into the die and threaded as far is it will go and the last threads are finished by hand.  The threaded section is then held in a special chuck I made for the wood lathe that is just a short section of maple with a matching female thread.  Screw the blank in and finish turning the decorative ball on the end.  The last step is to cut the threaded section off to length.

I have also done the threads in a drill press or a mill.  Using a 60 degree pointed end mill and a special fixture, I can cut the male thread right up to a shoulder.  It just takes longer to set the whole thing up.  On one silver mounted horn, I actually made the male thread out of brass (same 3/4 x 12 pitch) and drilled the center out to 1/2 inch.  The cascabel just had a 1/2 inch diameter wood cylindrical tail.  I mounted the brass threaded sleeve on the tail with a cross pin and filed the pin to match the thread on both sides.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2008, 05:12:39 PM by davec2 »
"No man will be a sailor who has contrivance enough to get himself into a jail; for being in a ship is being in a jail, with the chance of being drowned... a man in a jail has more room, better food, and commonly better company."
Dr. Samuel Johnson, 1780