No. 2 fixed one disaster, made a bigger one.

[kutter]

If you do use soft solder, use one with a high lead content (60-40 works well). It'll turn dark grey, sometimes almost black,  as it oxidizes and hide better than the newer lead free solders.

I have a still 'in the rough'  TG casting that's cracked badly through the bow. I thought I'd try and braze it using the still attached casting sprue material as filler. It should match but we'll see how that goes.
I might just end up with a grip rail! or more stuff for the brass scrap box.

Nice job on that guard Robby!

[JohnTyg]

Thanks for the great advice on both brazing/soldering and on drilling brass.
hate to think that with a touch more care with the drilling I wouldn't be trying to correct a misadventure to begin with.

[Stophel]

I

I have a still 'in the rough'  TG casting that's cracked badly through the bow. I thought I'd try and braze it using the still attached casting sprue material as filler. It should match but we'll see how that goes.
I might just end up with a grip rail! or more stuff for the brass scrap box.

One would have to be MUCH more skilled than me in order to braze brass with brass.  I assume it would have to be much like with silversmithing.  The silver solder/braze material has to be an alloy that melts at a lower temperature than the silver item, and the smith has to be VERY careful with his heat.

If you overheat brass, it will just go Splrggtt! and big globs of the brass will melt instantly.  Can't fix that!   

Is there a solder/braze material that is at least yellow-ish, like maybe with cadmium or something in it so that it would not be as noticeable on brass???

[JohnTyg]

'Stophel'

Will probably follow your suggestion with the silver solder. Just investigating the brazing brass on brass.

Thanks,
John

[Robby]

Stophel, The brazing rod I use is the standard coated stuff that is sold in any weld shop. It is a yellow like soft brass.
Robby

[Stophel]

cool.  I'm gonna have to experiment with that.

I haven't brazed with brass in years and years, and that was on steel.

[T*O*F]

Just investigating the brazing brass on brass.

Since those are hairline cracks, you don't need a filler rod.  You need a small tip and a very small flame.  Put heat stop paste about 1/2" around the crack and carefully flow the existing brass back together.  Do both sides and if you are careful, minimal filing will be required.

However given your experience, I would just flow Brownells Tix solder into the cracks.  Alternatively, I think I've got 4 or 5 of those castings.

[JohnTyg]

T*O*W

Thanks for the advice.  May try that.

 Would love to take one of those old sand castings off your hands if you think it might match.  This was purchased from Dixie about 25 years ago. Very rough, no flats or wedding band cast in.  Here is a better pic of the profile. The back is as shown in the earlier photo, it is somewhat symmetrical  (top half same as bottom half),  not the more tapered Reading like one you see a lot.

John

[JohnTyg]

Addendum:

Well a little tapered, just not too pronounced.

[Acer Saccharum]

Nice, clean work, John.

I can understand your desire to make things 'right'.

I've gotten to the point where you are, where I have to decide how much effort I am going to put in to get things the way I want them. It's not always an easy choice.

[T*O*F]

Would love to take one of those old sand castings off your hands if you think it might match.

Email reply and picture sitting in your mailbox.

[Hungry Horse]

I would solder it with Sta-Brite solder. It is similar to TIX, but I have had better results with it. It has a low melting point, but is many times stronger than plumbers solder. It behaves like silver solder, in that it doesn't build up, it wicks into the cracks.  I use it to attach lugs to fowler barrels, and have never had a warped barrel from too much heat. And, have never had one come off, even when a friend had a wet patch freeze in the barrel of his trade gun on a hunt in Idaho, that resulted in all the pins being bent like little sets of handlebars, and bending all the lock bolts. Good stuff Maynard.

                                     Hungry Horse

[JohnTyg]

Thanks for all of your supportive input,  very helpful indeed!

The photo that T*O*F sent out is definitely that old sand casting I used.  Made my day. 

Got a reply back from Brad Emig recommending gas or TIG brass brazing.  Happens that there is a well known welding shop just up the road that also has teaching classes.  I'll either attempt this myself or farm it out. Hopefully obtain the old sand casting as a backup, its a nice design. 

Acer,
 Yeh, I've put so much time into this that for me a little extra time spent to do it right doesn't
bother me.

Thanks again, I'll post the repair when done. One last photo.

John

[JohnTyg]

Have a question about the variation in quality of brass castings.

Decided to go ahead and refit a duplicate sand casting that I obtained through the courtesy of another member, rather than attempt to repair the original.

Fortunately purchased more than one!  These are definitely the same castings. The original I fit following some mild reshaping.  How I got away from it the first time I don't know. Annealed it twice, Almost had it completely fit, one small knock with a hammer and block of hardwood and it cracked.

Now working on the other and fitting it with NO ATTEMPT to reshape what so ever.  A little more work but thats OK.

One thing I noticed.  My early efforts to anneal the brass patch box hinge was unremarkable.  I did notice a silvery film on the brass after heating and assume that this was some of the zinc being drawn out.
On both the butt plates I noticed a carbon or dark, dirty film after heating (used a MAP torch on all).
Wondering if this was contaminates in a brass that is less than pure and maybe this is the cause of the crystalin like brittleness??

I may simply not use some brass castings in the future, and would this be a way to test them??

John

[T*O*F]

John,

#1.  Lose the hammer.  Any reshaping you do can be accomplished with your vise and hardwood blocks or lead jaws.  You can "gradually" flatten areas.  Bends can be done with 3 blocks or dowels.  These will not work harden your brass to the extent that a hammer will.

#2.  I eschew annealing and have only done it in a few rare instances, like making one from scratch.  Always used #1 above without problems.  If you really feel the need to anneal, flick your flame over the entire item in a darkened corner of your shop.  Stop when the entire item is a dull red, which can't be seen in bright light.  Your zinc film indicates you are overheating your piece.

#3.  File and smooth your piece to get rid of all the sandcast pits and inclusions, BEFORE you start your work.  That is the most likely source of your black contamination, either that or you have a reducing flame on your torch.  You really need a flame spread rather than a pencil point flame tip to heat large items.

[JohnTyg]

Dave,

Thanks, definitely will loose the hammer for cast brass,
Probably the discoloration is from the external unfinished part of the sand casting as didn't notice it on polished parts.

New plate almost in but I will say it is certainly easier to fit one the first time, than to refit one to a finished stock since there is no excess wood to protect against edge chips.

Thanks again

John

[JohnTyg]

New casting is in. (No hammering this time!)
Thanks for everyones input.
Special thanks to T*O*F* for supplying the original castings.

Seems the consensus for repair was to silver solder from back and let it bleed through to outside surface.

New casting worked out best for me as allowed me to improve the look of the flats/wedding band to a more traditional appearance. (wedding band still crude but I'll work on it).

John

[4ster]

I think your workmanship and sense of proportion is very good.  I like it.  I thought fitting a new butt plate was unnecessary, I would have tried silver solder, but the results show it was worth it.

 Thanks for posting the pictures and fostering the discussion, I learned some things.

[woodburner]

I do not know the answer but knowing I do not know is in the right direction. Lafeniere's suggestion I would not follow;the cracks are
barely visible, a cut and fill without knowing  brass' composition
may make them more visible.  I would opt for a "back"solder repair. Tim

[JohnTyg]

Steve (4ster),

Very much appreciate the comment. 

Shudder to think what this rifle would have turned out like (Hope I'm not speaking prematurely) without this site and the encouragement and advice offered here. To this point I am pleased and somewhat surprised at what I have so far produced.

Have just started to refine the shape of the side plates and am looking forward to constructive advice as I progress (sort of hope to keep out of trouble with this part of the architecture).

Thanks,

John

[Pete G.]

Always remember that these things that we love are handmade items. They are not perfectly copied machine made reproductions. Small aberrations occur in all originals, both antique and contemporary. That is a large part of the charm of a handmade item. This does not excuse sloppy workmanship, but it also means that less than perfect is perfectly acceptable, and possibly even desirable at times.

[JohnTyg]

Pete,

Great observation and right to the emotional heart of why I think I love these rifles, as they were made by real persons as imperfect as our selves and who in my mind held valves that I would consider important today.  I think that they often expressed some of their values  in the care of their craftsmanship.  I am sure my first attempt at carving will not be perfect, but I hope will still be "folksy and charming" and the best I can do.

Best regards,

John

[Acer Saccharum]

Practice on scrap. You'll develop 'muscle memory' rather quickly, and this will serve you very well when you go to carve your rifle.

Tom

[Don Tripp]

That's a nice looking rifle. My 2nd rifle was ugly. I'd be happy if my next rifle (# 17) turns out as nice as your 2nd rifle.

[JohnTyg]

Don,

Thanks for the comment.
 
In all fairness I am going to expect, or hoping for, some really tough but constructive critisizm as I move along.

More than one rifle's worth of experience here as I have done several parts of the rifle more than once.
Do have a fair amount of experience working with my hands.  My father was an old surgeon who grew up during the great depression.  Sold eggs on the street corner as a 5 year old.  If he wanted something he made it himself.  Carried these tallents into his later life and tought me some of what he knew (i.e. forging scottish knives when I was a teen).  We used to see who could make the better item, and He had always wanted to build a Lancaster rifle.  Anyways, maybe thats why I've been obsessive about getting this right.  Enough sentimentality. 

Anyways, If something doesn't looks right or can be improved, please let me know, I'm going to stick with hobby and already thinking about a third rifle.  Maybe I should post a pic of my first rifle, (incredibly horrid!).

John