Author Topic: Building a singel phase double settrigger for a pistol(pictures fixed)  (Read 13409 times)

Offline Rolf

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Forword to tutorial

I'd like to thank everyone who has given me advice on this project. The tutorial I have written sums up my results. It is a bit longwinded and picture heavy and meant mainly to help newbies like me. Most of this is probably "old hat" for experienced builders. I'm hoping other builders will add tips, advice and comments.

The settrigger is made for a long barreled pistol (15")I'm working on. The barrel is custom made by Ed Rayl.
I've talked to Dennis, and will be donating  a copy of the CAD drawings I made for the trigger +  trigger guard + barrel profile and stock profile. All drawings 1:1 scale. I also made a extra trigger and trigger guard for practice .

The parts and copies of the plans will be for sale and proceeds go to funding of the ALR website.

Best regards
Rolf
« Last Edit: September 17, 2017, 09:17:13 PM by Rolf »

Offline Rolf

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Re: Building a singel phase double settrigger for a pistol
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2012, 12:57:38 AM »
Designing Settriggers.
The three main differences between double settriggers for rifles and pistols
1. Trigger plates are a lot shorter on pistols. This leaves less room to fit parts and the main spring has to be shorter and stiffer.
2.The rear end of the trigger plate has to be inlet below the surface of the pistol stock or it will conflict with the trigger guard tang.
3. Trigger plates curve a lot more on pistols.

Bottom loading verus top loading front triggers.
With the top loading trigger, only the trigger shoe has to fit through the slot in the triggerplate. This makes it easy to draw the trigger blade, but limits the trigger shoe to a “straight nail” with the same width as the blade. With a bottom loading trigger, blade has to fit through the slot of plate. This makes the blade harder to design, but gives you more options designing the trigger shoe. Take your pick. I chose bottom loading because I like broad trigger shoes.

Making brass patterns.
When designing the triggers, draw the plate so it fits the curve of the grip, then draw in the triggers. Cut the patterns out of brass sheet stock. I used 0, 04” thick brass.  Check how the triggers move in relation to each other. The rear tail of the front trigger can be tricky to get the right length. If it is to long the triggers will bind.


If it is too short, you will have problems placing the adjustment screw in the plate.


Pivot point placement.
The hook on the front trigger engages the notch on the rear trigger. Draw a vertical line through the hook and place the front trigger pivot point somewhere on this line. If you place it in front of the line, you will get an unstable trigger that can release unexpectedly. If you place it behind the line, you’ll get a heavier trigger pull. Placement of the rear trigger pivot point is not critical.


Making the triggers.
I made my triggers by cold forging 1/8” thick mild steel.

Front trigger.
I filed the curve of the trigger shoe out of the blank and drew a line 2/8” parallel and below it. Next I peaned the blank down to this line, using a large punch.

 
Trenching with a punch, followed up with plandishing with a hammer, was the quickest way to move
the metal.



 
  Next I filed the shoe to the finished size and shape, glued the blade pattern to the blank using “scotch weld, stencil glue”. Do not use water based glues. They distort paper patterns. Then I drilled the pivot hole and sawed out the trigger with a jeweler’s saw (blade +6). Lubricate the blade with bee’s wax.


Rear trigger
The rear trigger was made the same way, except that the shoe was forged horizontal and curved hot using a pair of pliers and a propane torch






Making the triggerplate and installing the triggers.
The trigger plate is made from 10mmx10mm (0.4”x0.4”) mild steel bar stock.
The trigger plate for pistols has to curve to fit the grip. The best way to get a smooth curve this is to bend the bar stock hot before doing any shaping. If you cut out the “ears” first, there is a tendency to distort the curve here. Likewise bending after cutting the trigger slots can mess up the slot dimensions. Use a bending block. This guaranties that the trigger plate will follow the curve of the pistol grip.
Making the bending block.
I drew the curve of the on a steel beam and installed a series of bolts along it. I heated the bar stock to 840C in a heat treating oven and did all the bending in one heat. You could do it with a heavy duty propane torch using several heats. Cutting the blank a couple of inches extra long, makes the bending easier.


If you are not careful it is easy to twist the blank while bending it. You can get rid of the twist by reheating the blank and squeezing it in a vice.


Truing up the blank.
No matter how careful you have been, the blank will wobble when laid on a flat surface. The metal on the inside of curve has been compressed and the metal on the outside has been stretched. The bottom flat of the blank is now 10,25mm wide and the top flat 9.85mm wide, where the curve is tightest. The blank is still 10mm x 10mm where it is straight. I use a large metal rasp to true up the sides of the blank and use the straight front end as guide. 


Next, I draw file the top and bottom flats to get rid of fire scale and square up the blank.


Then I paint it with machinist blue and trace the pattern of the blank. Before cutting out the profile, I modify it so that the rear of blank is 2/8” thick, not 1/8” . I’ll explain why later. The easiest way to cut out the trigger plate is to drill a series of holes along the profile ant cut through the remaining steel with a jeweler’s saw. If you use a press drill, what’s left of the holes is an excellent guide for filing the plate level. I also drill the holes for the trigger pins at this stage.


Cutting the trigger slots and ruff adjusting the trigger blades.
I put extra long pins in the plate and mount the trigger on the side of the plate. By moving the triggers, I can find the placement and length of the slots. Drill a series of holes for the slots from the bottom of the plate. Use these holes as a guide for sawing out the slot between the ears. Next saw out the individual slots for the front and rear triggers. Mount the triggers in the slot and file the blade notches to fit.


Why is the rear end of the plate this fat?
The front end is a little over 1/8” thick while the rear end is 2/8”thick. This is to make room for the trigger guard tang. The plate is inlet flush with the wood. Then take it out of the stock and file  the rear of the trigger plate so it tapers to 1/16” below the surface of the wood. The rear portion of the plate is now in bottom of the inlet for the trigger guard tang. The tang is inleted on top of the trigger plate. Due to the length of the plate, this is the only way to make room for the tang.

Then I install the triggers and ruff file the length of the hooks so they can move without jamming.
Next I drill and thread the holes for the set screw, backlash screw and mainspring screw.
Backlash and mainspring screws are M4 (4mm) and the set screw M3 (3mm). Several books recommend using interference fit for the set screw. I have tried that, but every time I ended up twisting the screw off.  Therefore I threaded the holes completely all the way. Place the set screw as close as possible to the front trigger. If placed in the middle between the two triggers, it won’t reach the “tail “of the front trigger. On bottom loading triggers, the length of the trigger slot severely limits the length of the tail.

Making the springs..

The mainspring.
The spring is made out of a piece of 0.7% carbon steel, 3mm (1/8”) thick. I anneal the steel by heating it to 840C (1544F) for 45minutes and letting it cool overnight in the oven. Next I cut out blanks 65mm x 8mm (2.5” x 0.3”).  Then I file out the spring nose (0.5”x0.1”).


I curve the spring in a vice, hitting it with a hammer. I start at the nose and work my way to the rear end.


I try to get the body of the spring to follow the curve of the trigger plate and the nose to go down into the rear trigger slot. This gives the spring the necessary pretension. Without it, it’s too weak to trip the lock sear.




I use a scribe to mark the trigger plate mainspring hole onto the spring blank and drill the hole. When mounting the spring in the trigger plate, you’ll find it is too long and blocks the rear trigger. The length is easily adjusted by filing the nose shorter.

The weak spring.
The weak spring is cut out of 1/16” thick spring steel.


The end of the hook is heated bright cherry red with a torch and bent 90 degrees, so the spring can’t slip off the front trigger.


Do not mount the weak trigger spring on the right side of the trigger plate. The lock sear will interfere with its function. 
 

Hardening and tempering the springs
I preheat my heat treating oven to 840C (1544F) soak the main spring for 20 minutes and quench in oil.  Soak the weak spring for 5 minutes. For tempering I preheat the oven to 400C (752F) and soak both springs for 30 minutes, then air cool at room temperature.

Best regards
Rolf
« Last Edit: September 17, 2017, 09:09:34 PM by Rolf »

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Building a singel phase double settriger for a pistol
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2012, 02:04:25 AM »
That is an interesting article. I wish I had a way to post pictures but I don't at the moment.
I developed a two lever double set trigger for a pistol or pistol grip rifle that has the mainspring fastend to the front of the trigger bar and extending along the right side of the release bars and the front trigger tension spring coming along the left side and fastened with a small screw. No interference with the curve of the trigger guard tang that way. Another idea I made up was for a Schuetzen double set trigger that had an independent latch built into the right side of the front trigger and was adjustable with a small screw that was in the front trigger and looks like the adjustment screw of a single set trigger. The advantage of this is that no matter how light the trigger is set,the angle of the front trigger never changes. This is an expensive trigger and I haven't made one since 1987.
This design would require a milling machine.
I might make one of the pistol types just to see if I still remember how and post pictures of it.

Bob Roller

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Building a singel phase double settriger for a pistol
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2012, 02:18:51 AM »
The heat must be getting to me because one thing I forgot was the lock. I made about 100 Bailes locks using plates,cocks and frizzens from my own moulds whic were made YEARS ago using an antique lock for masters. These locks were made for Helmut Mohr of Mayen/Hausen Germany and he asked if the sear could be positioned a little higher in the lock plate so I did a small redo to the sear and the higher sear gave room needed for a high profile single set trigger. This can be incorporated for use with a double set trigger as well.

Bob Roller

Offline Rolf

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Re: Building a singel phase double settriger for a pistol
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2012, 10:33:47 AM »
I developed a two lever double set trigger for a pistol or pistol grip rifle that has the mainspring fastend to the front of the trigger bar and extending along the right side of the release bars and the front trigger tension spring coming along the left side and fastened with a small screw. No interference with the curve of the trigger guard tang that way. I might make one of the pistol types just to see if I still remember how and post pictures of it.

Bob Roller

I hope you find time to build one. I'd love to see how you do it.

Best regards
Rolf

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Building a singel phase double settrigger for a pistol
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2012, 05:39:03 PM »
Outstanding.

Thanks for the tutorial.

Dan
No, sir, I don't give 'em $#*!, I just tell the truth and they think it's $#*!. Harry S Truman

twotimer

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Re: Building a singel phase double settrigger for a pistol
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2012, 05:23:48 PM »
hi all,if i'm on the wrong forum please inform me.i have a half stock hawkens style percussion riflr.50 cal.it has a w.m.large match grade barrel on it,deduced from my research.a friend built 6 back in the late 70s-early 80s. he passed last month and left this to me.it has double set trigers but the rear trigger do's not set the front trigger to a lighter pull.i have had it off and it has 'rollers in a semi circle with the numerials 76 inside-under the letters.is this a single stage double trigger.the rifle has only been fired a few times and is in extremely excellent condition.i have fired it and the trigger pull is aprox.6 pounds.

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Building a singel phase double settrigger for a pistol
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2012, 07:54:18 PM »
That sounds like one of my triggers that has been altered  for who knows what reason. It is 36 years old and should be capable of firng the lock with a pull on the front trigger IF it was carefully installed. The rear trgger adjusts nothing. The front trigger is the one that does the adjusting on all my double set triggers.

Bob Roller

twotimer

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Re: Building a singel phase double settrigger for a pistol
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2012, 06:46:45 AM »
bob,thanks.the trigger is in extremely great shape and all parts are as new and work with a swiss watch percision.its just that i have been used to double trigers that at half cock you set the front trigger to a lighter pull useing the rear trigger.i don't think its been altered at all.just my misunderstanding.regards,robert.

Offline Don Getz

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Re: Building a singel phase double settrigger for a pistol
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2012, 05:54:37 AM »
Rolf........great show.   Especially interesting in view of the fact that I am about to build a pistol and they guy wanted a
set trigger, however, it does look like a lot of work.   I would probably have to give up my afternoon naps...........Don

Offline Rolf

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Re: Building a singel phase double settrigger for a pistol
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2012, 05:19:08 PM »
Forword to tutorial

I've talked to Dennis, and will be donating  a copy of the CAD drawings I made for the trigger +  trigger guard + barrel profile and stock profile. All drawings 1:1 scale. I also made a extra trigger and trigger guard for practice .

The parts and copies of the plans will be for sale and proceeds go to funding of the ALR website.

Still working on the pistol project. Working as an intern at the hospital takes the starch out of me.
The pictures show as far as I've come so far. Messed up the filing one of the triggergards and had to use the spare I made. I've made two extra settriggers, that I will be sending to Dennis along with the CAD drawings. Hope to get around to it this year.

At the moment I'm working on the iron side plate. Plan to start casting the tin muzzle caps next.
Best regards
Rolf






« Last Edit: September 17, 2017, 09:11:55 PM by Rolf »

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Building a singel phase double settrigger for a pistol
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2012, 09:22:30 PM »
Quote
Working as an intern at the hospital takes the starch out of me.
WOW Rolf, looking at those pistols you certainly work well without starch in you ;D I am retired and it would take me the whole year to make 4 pistols! They look great. looking forward to seeing the completed products.
Dennis
"I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend" - Thomas Jefferson

Offline Rolf

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Re: Building a singel phase double settrigger for a pistol
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2012, 11:08:41 PM »
Fitting settriggers and triggerguards
I have finished putting together three single phase dobbel settriggers. I will send these to Dennis along with the patterns for the pistol stock, 15”swamped barrel, settriggers and triggerguard. Sales of the triggers and copies of the patterns will go to funding the ALR.  I have no idea what is a realistic price and will leave that up to Dennis. The ALR has been a big help and a source of inspiration for me. Hopefully this offer will be of interest.


The set triggers offered are identical to the ones I’ve fitted into four pistols, and they work.
But they have to be adjusted to fit the stock and lock for each pistol. The picture below shows a fitted trigger, compared to a “kit”trigger. (I made the weak spring a bit too short and had to file down the neck of the “fitted” front trigger. It works fine in the pistol.) The pins on two of the triggers are left long, since makes them easier to dismantle. These have to be trimmed short when mounting in a stock.


The trigger guard tang fits on top of the trigger plate, in the same mortise.
 

You have to file the rear portion of the plate to fit the trigger tang.


The trigger tang is made of 1/8” thick mild steel, which allows you file a round profile that fits the conture of the grip. The down side is that is hard to adjust the tang to follow the stock profile. I did this using two pairs of pliers, while heating portions of the tang with a propane torch.
•   Do not heat the tang where it is soldered to the bow.
•   When bending the tang, use the pliers only to grip the tang. Do not grip the bow.
•   If not, you will pull the tang lose.
NB!!You have bend the tang to fit the stock profile before filing the tang round.

Best regards
Rolf

« Last Edit: September 17, 2017, 09:16:25 PM by Rolf »

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Building a singel phase double settrigger for a pistol
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2012, 11:24:18 PM »
I have made double lever double set triggers on a curved plate
that was 1/2"wide and chraged $75 a set for them. They were
for a Schuetzen rifle and one set for a pistol grip Hawken.
If you have a vertical milling machine,they are not that hard to
make.
Benchcrafted parts for muzzle loaders is not a real common skill
so don't under price yourself.Skilled labor has its own value according
to my German customers.

Bob Roller

Offline cmac

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Re: Building a singel phase double settrigger for a pistol
« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2012, 09:50:14 PM »
I just made my 1st double set triggers. They are posted in the gun building section under 1st pistol and a Virginia rifle. They weren't as hard as I thought. I used music wire for the weaker spring and made it cold. Works well. Like your pistols!and nice tutorial!