Looking for a reference piece, Swiss, very early 1700's

[PGosnell]

This might sound like a pretty specific search but it has a purpose.  I am looking for examples of Swiss flintlock rifles from the lower Rhine, Basil and Berne area, very early 1700's.  Also interested in German counterparts from the same time period from the lower Rhine.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

[Longknife]

I saved some pictures of a .70 cal rifle signed "ZULLY" that was recently on an auction. I believe it to be Swiss, I can foreward them if you want them...Ed

[PGosnell]

Ed,

That would be great.  I think that Ziilly was from the Metzigen / Ulm area which is only about 60 miles from the Rhine in Germany.  Right on that border area of lower land Bavaria and southern Rhine valley. So it is close and I would definite like to add the pictures to my collection.

The school that I am want to study was centered in the Berne / Basel area, which has been described to me as akin to Germany's southern Rhine valley architecture.

Thanks,

Paul

[Jim Filipski]

Paul,
Southern Rhine is a little tough.... but I have some in my archives, I believe. Give me some time to check.
Just did a bunch of research from a familiy of gunsmiths near Wittgenstien & I'm sure I encompassed that area during my searches. I may have the guns without the "verbage" lifted from some of the European auction sites. I may be able to point you in the right direction if you can handle the computer well.
If you get antzy email me.
Jim

[PGosnell]

Jim,

That would be super.  I will accept the reference in any form you see fit.  Either as email attachments or as links to other websites.

Thanks,

Paul

[cal.43]

thats a book about swedisch gunmakers.

[Larry Luck]

Ed and Jim,

If you are able to post these photos, as opposed to emailing them, without copyright or other concerns, please do.

I have an ancestor that came to Virginia (was trying to make it to Pennsylvania until hijacked by Gov. Spottswood) from KLINGS, SAXONY, GERMANY, in 1717 and would be interested in the sort of weapons that he and his family may have brought with them.

Larry Luck

[PGosnell]

Larry,

I have identified one reference that might provide an idea of Swiss firemarms from the 17th century.

The book is titled Technische Entwicklung der Feuerwaffen 1200 bis 1900   (Technical development of firearms from 1200 to 1900).  Peter H. Kunz is the author.  It was published in orignally in Switzerland and is available for 98 euros at Amazon.de.  Problem is that I have not found it at an English website and have been unable to successfully access the German website via a translator.  I found the book listed at the website of the Swiss Rifle Museum in Bern, Switzerland.

However, if you specifically want to see a Saxony firearm, I would recommend Suhl as a school and those can be found in Shumway's book on Jaegers which is available through his webiste:    http://www.shumwaypublisher.com/

Paul

[Stophel]

I have only managed to come across photos of a grand total of TWO known Swiss 18th century rifles.  That's it.  Mid 18th c. 

 1700 would be easier, as things aren't divided out as clearly this early.  The closest thing I can come up with, regionally, with any consistency, would be guns from Elsasz (before the French takeover), Coeln, etc.  Quite distinctive.

Saxon rifles...MUCH easier to find examples of.    I can show you actual saxon rifles.  Let me get photos together at home later.

Actually, here, just go to www.hermann-historica.com and look through their auction catalogs.  You will find rifles from Sachsen and elsewhere.

Wouldn't "lower Rhine" would be Holland?...downriver.


Here's a typical ca. 1700 rifle from Wiesbaden.  I have seen virtually identical guns from Coeln and Strassburg...all up and down the Rhine

I wonder if this form of gun originated, more or less, in Strassburg in the late 17th century, and when the French took over, the gunsmiths fled downriver...  It's a VERY distinctive form, with an equally distinctive triggerguard.  I do not know if guns like this were made in Switzerland, but it's about as close as I can get right now.  I do have photos of a Swiss fowling gun that someone sent me, I think about 1690.  I don't have the photos on this computer.  I think it was Basel....not sure.  It was typical "European" form...basically French in style.

A Saxon gun.  Hans Loeffler in Ruhla, Sachsen.  1723.  I LOVE this gun.

Yes, that's a maple stock.

[Stophel]

OK, here's the only two known 18th c Swiss gun photos I have (OK, one is known, the other is attributed).  The one with the relief hardware is restocked.


Note the long barrel on the rifle...

[T*O*F]

I wonder if this form of gun originated, more or less, in Strassburg in the late 17th century

Chris,
Is Strassburg the same place as Strasbourg? 

I have shotguns by Bietz a Strasbourg and Ledermann a Luzelfluh, but they are caplocks.

[Stophel]

If I remember correctly, it was 1696 (?) when the French moved in and took over Elsasz (which became Alsace), and Strassburg became Strasbourg.


Ugh, I hate even typing French!

[PGosnell]

I have located a photo of a confirmed Melchoir Keller, Basel, Switerland, 1690


And if someone can tell me how to upload a picture from my hard drive to this website I will gladly do so.

[Longknife]

Rifle is approx .70 cal with a 33 inch barrel

[cal.43]

If I remember correctly, it was 1696 (?) when the French moved in and took over Elsasz (which became Alsace), and Strassburg became Strasbourg.


Ugh, I hate even typing French!

the town is named Straßburg, 1681 frecnh troups occupied the city during peace period and own them officilal since the peace of Rijswijk in 1697.


Deutschland in den Grenzen von 1248 Sizilien bleibt deutsch  :-D

[T*O*F]

the town is named Straßburg, 1681 frecnh troups occupied the city during peace period and own them officilal since the peace of Rijswijk in 1697.

Really, I guess ole Bietz didn't know how to spell where he lived and signed all his guns wrong.

[PGosnell]

in the German alphabet, the ß symbol is the double s, as in Gießen or Giessen, where I use to live.

[PGosnell]

Melchoir Keller, 1690, Basel, Switzerland

[cal.43]

the town is named Straßburg, 1681 frecnh troups occupied the city during peace period and own them officilal since the peace of Rijswijk in 1697.

Really, I guess ole Bietz didn't know how to spell where he lived and signed all his guns wrong.

I heard that Nieuw Amsterdam  is today called New York .

[Stophel]

TOF, since that's a percussion gun, it would stand to reason that the "Strasbourg" spelling would be used, as it is long after the time of the French takeover.

I have a mid-18th century hunting sword marked "Manufature Royale d'Alsace".

Longknife, that rifle is stylistically VERY Austrian.

[Larry Luck]

Paul and Chris,

Thank you for the information. 

I apologize for the delay in responding - I've been working to get an unhappy couple divorced.  Trial was yesterday, and now for the Holidays!

I like that maple jaeger.

Merry Christmas,

Larry Luck