More open sights

[Harnic]

I've been fighting with sights for my flintlock rifle for the past 2½ years, since I built it.  I had a silver blade front (.080" wide) & a quarter inch ring soldered into an altered semi-buckhorn rear which worked somewhat like a peep, but not adjustable.  It works great for me but a few period correct weenies had a problem with it.  I just made new sights a few days ago & when we get out of the current deep-freeze (2 feet of fresh powder yesterday & -15°C) I'll try them out.  I've gone to a 1/8" wide brass blade up front and a semi-buckhorn rear with a BIG "v" notch in it.

 

I can see both fairly clearly with my glasses on & with a 42" barrel, the width of the front blade shouldn't be a problem. Actually I'm thinking it may be more precise than my "peep" was because the aperture was too big.  I've seen a couple sights on Daryl's rifles & they too seem to help with aging eye syndrome.  There seems to be almost as many solutions for tired eyes as there are old shooters.  What works for you guys?

[Daryl]

Ohhh - any old sight is fine with me - thay all work well, more or less.  I wonder if seeing both is possible?  It's been 20 years since I thought I could see both. I know when I concentrate on the front as we ALL know we should, the rear is fuzzy as-is the target. Just how fuzzy might be the degree with which we see? Wider knotches seem to help, along with larger fronts. The sight which eliminates having to decide where the centre of the front sight is, is the sight to use if you're having difficulty.  That may be one more reason why the Express sights with wide V's and round beads were and are still put on double rifles. Fuzzy circles still have an imediate and defined centre.  Older gents are the ones who usually have the time and money to hunt and also are the ones needing those sights so those are the ones placed on hunting rifles made in England for 'the continent'- makes perfect sense to me.

[Herb]

Here is an original muzzleloading rifle with a closed buckhorn sight.  It is in a museum in DesMoines, IA.  I don't have the specifics to hand.  I also saw an original Hawken rifle with a sight like this in a National Park Service Museum in St. Louis about ten years ago.  It might have been called the Jefferson National Expansion Memorial Museum or similar.

[Harnic]

Herb, that was what I patterned my closed buckhorn on but the "weenies" I referred to would require a notorized statement from your museum's curator & a judge before they'd accept it!  As I said, it worked very well for my old eyes, but I got fed up with arguing with dummies all the time.

[Daryl]

There is one or more Hawkens with that closed buckhorn type of sight that I've seen pictures of.  Lack of knowledge by his Weenies seems to be Harry's problem.  Of course, the 'answer' to the problem was posted a long time ago when we had this discussion here on ALR.  Open the top - it's still a peep sight to the eye.  The other is the U notch in which the front bead is held down in the bottom, with the sides and bottom forming the aperture. With a minimal amount of practise (we all need more of that) this sight becomes all it can be - a very accurate, fast sight and usable on all sizes of bullseye and plate targets.

[Harnic]

When this deep freeze moves back up your way Daryl, I'll go test these "new" open sights I made.  If I'm happy with them I'm set, if not, I'll weld up my semi-buckhorn rear sight & grind/drill it like the one in Herb's picture.

[northmn]

I had sight problems this deer season.  I had finer sights on a long rifle that worked great with younger eyes.  After screwing up on a couple of deer I realized that I was not getting the front sight down into the notch and was shooting high to see the front sight.  I opened up the rear notch considerable, but plan on using the Express sights as Daryl has shown a few times with a "long range peep" as I do not have to deal with the "weenies" any more.  They used to amuse me anyway, as their authenticity was based on 1950's movies and television.  I used to refer to them as Walt Disney buckskinners.  They would show up at a get together with a pickup and trailer full of gear, some of which was only authentic to them because it was made of wood, wear buckskins no normal human of the times would be caught dead in (one of the first things Mountain men would trade for at a rendezvous was clothing) and sit around the campfires BSing and not shooting as that became beneath them.  These are the people that set the rules at their shoots.  One of them visited the American Mountain Mens camp at the Western Rendezvous and commented on how stark it was and lacked any interesting equipment.   Mostly because the real mountain men never had all that junk and could only take what they packed on a pack horse.  One of the reasons I quit going to shoots.

DP

[Curtis]

Harry,

Here is a pic of the sight on an original Leman I have that may interest you:


And one on a plains rifle in a St. Louis museum, probably the same one mentioned by others in this post:

 

[Harnic]

Thanks Curtis!  That second image is exactly the sight I like!  I think while it's too !@*%&@ cold out to shoot anyway, & the weatherman says it's staying that way for the foreseeable future, I'll go ahead & make a sight just like it now.  I agree with DP's assessment of the weenies & the only shoot I attend anymore is Heffley every August because Daryl, Taylor & several other really fine folks are always there.  They are by far the majority at Heffley, the few weenies really don't matter in the scheme of things.  Maybe next year if I am challenged by any of them over my copy of a closed buckhorn we'll have another historic re-enactment & settle our dispute with a hawk & knife!   Thanks again Curtis, this image gives me a very accurate view of how to make my sight!  Happy Christmas to all my buddies here & I wish you all the best of the New Year.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Same back at 'cha, Harry!  And here are two pics of an original Hawken sight, courtesy of Don Stith.

[Curtis]

You are most welcome, Harry.  Another member of this board sent me that picture of the rifle in St. Louis when I was looking for rifles with similar sights, so it is only fair that I should share it with you now!

One thing that has been mentioned to me that you may take note of, however, is the sight looks to be mounted backwards on the rifle... 

And Taylor, thanks for posting that original Hawken sight from Don Stith.

[Harnic]

That sight does look backwards Curtis, but I'm going to do my best to replicate it with a slightly smaller aperture & install it the other way!  

Thanks Taylor, I've seen that pic before, probably here.  It's a bit too blocky or crude looking for my taste but definitely sets the parameters I can work within.  I don't think much of the full buckhorn style (open at the top).  It warps the circle of light for my eyes & tends to distort the light in the center where the blade sits.  Having just made this perfectly acceptable semi-buckhorn sight & installed it, I'm going back out to the shop & building a closed buckhorn, along the lines of those shown above.  I really much prefer an aperture type sight.

[Herb]

None of these sights is like the one I saw and photographed (wish I could find it) in that St. Louis National Park Service museum.  As I remember it, it looked just like a quarter inch flat washer soldered in where the buckhorns should be.

[Harnic]

That would work fine Herb, but in the interest of avoiding a few arguments with the "know-it-alls" I thought I'd do a better job of the sight.  You have to wonder how many of the more crude sights we see in museums are more recent additions done under very primitive conditions by inexperienced "gunsmiths"...

[northmn]

I have never tried a peep mounted that far down a barrel but think I may.  To me later "crude" add ons are still original.

DP

[doug]

That would work fine Herb, but in the interest of avoiding a few arguments with the "know-it-alls" I thought I'd do a better job of the sight. 

     I think the problem is less one of know it alls than it is one of rules of competition that have become set in stone.  A classic example would be sights on a trade gun--- about 1/2 of the ones that I have seen have had rear sights chopped into the barrel with a cold chisel.  That is a fin of metal curled up and a notch filed in the center.  Further it is not uncommon to see smoothbores with a raised head on the tang screw and the slot aligned so that it can be used as a sort of rear sight. 
      For my own personal use, I far prefer a relatively thick front sight with a square top and a rear sight with a square top and square notch and farther down the barrel than is common.  It gives me a constant sight picture.  My eyes have now aged to the point where I have to use some clip on reading glasses over my regular ones.  They focus at about 3 feet or slightly more but I can still see about 90% of the target at 100 yards.

cheers Doug

[Daryl]

To add to Doug's post- the line must be drawn somewhere, or folks with whom winning is the most important part of shooting, would show up with AJ Parker, Central or Redfield target aperture sights attached to their guns, front and back.  Rule benders must be kept in check. Rule bending or stretching has destroyed many competitions which have now turned into race-gun events.  I for one, feel it's best to keep things simple and straight foreward.  Open sights, although even they can be 'streeeeetched" with the U notch to be used as an open top aperture sight as well as buck-horn-type sights used as apertures with higher than normal front sights, etc.

  Not liking one of these normal stretches is too bad in my book. If you want to use an aperture due to your failing eye sight, then use one that is acceptable - open top or U notch but has to be open.  I-too would like to use a match-type rear as well as front sight as it would make me much more accurate - but I also feel it degrades the 'flavour' of the shooting. Therefore, I use open sights that I can almost see. If I practise enough, I know I will be in or close to the winner's circle - sometimes - good enough.

[Harnic]

Ha!  Count on Daryl to put it all in perspective.  You're right as usual Daryl.  I'll stick with the thick front sight & big "v" notch rear sight that I made last week for my Heffley rifle.  I shoot black powder entirely for fun & don't give a rat's ass if I hit anything with it or not.  My "flinchlock" is a LOT of fun to shoot & the people I shoot with at Heffley are what provide the most enjoyment.  I have lots of other, much more accurate firearms that I can satisfy my accuracy needs with.  I can see the open sights well enough to tell the general direction I'm shooting.

Thanks buddy!  Happy Christmas!

[Daryl]

Merry Christmas Harry & good shooting - when it warms up a tich. Just putting the last few coats of browning solution on my new 1/2 stock .40 squirrel rifle. Now to build it's underrib - can't decide - oak, walnut or maple.

[Harnic]

LOL!  Decisions, decisions.  Life is tough Daryl. 

[Daryl]

Wonder what sights I'll put on it?

[Harnic]

How 'bout a 32x scope Daryl?   

[Daryl]

What flavour would that be? M4200?

[Harnic]

We want pictures when you're done Daryl, especially if you put a scope on it! 

[Daryl]

guess not this time around - that scope goes on something else.