Personal preference: 16 gauge or 20 gauge

[Salkehatchie]

Taking an informal poll here...

What is your personal preference amoungst the smooth bore shooters?  This would include use of ball as well as shot.  I have several 20's but...am sorely tempted to "up" to a larger caliber.  Not sure if it is worth the effort to switch given all my supplies and guns are geared towards the 20 gauge.

16 gauge?

20 gauge?

"Other"?


Thank you!

[Collector]

I'm a 16 ga. fan. 

[James Rogers]

I like the 16 for the best of both worlds. Bigger for shot and smaller for ball. But... if ball is my goal, I choose a rifle.
That said, I am building an English fowler that is using a 20 Colerain 44" barrel. It's walls at the muzzle are way thick for me for a fowling piece exclusive so it will become primarily my bear gun by default and be classed by me as a "fusil".   

[Daryl]

Most smoothbores you see on the range are 20 bore.  The main reasons for this is the 20 bore barrels are more easily obtained and precarved stocks are already inlet for them. As to accouterments, there are more moulds in the .20 bore range. The downside to 20's is the 16 bore will be more accurate with ball and handle larger charges of shot in normal "square" loads.  Yes, I know some guys still use 10 and 8 bore loads in their 20's. trackofthewold.com has althe 16 bore and other sized wads necessary for shot loading. Ball moulds of any size arer made by Jeff Tanner in England - cheap and fit all normal mould block handles.  I own two of his moulds for even larger balls and they are excellent moulds. Generally 7 day delivery, all the way from England.

 What would I choose? - well, everyone has a 20 bore - I would prefer a 16 or even a 14 personally.  New 14 bore barrels are like hen's teeth - not too many around, so it would probably be a 16 if I made up a smoothbore.  A 16 bore will handle a 1 ounce ball, compared to the barely more than 5/8oz ball for the 20. The 16 would be much better for hunting, although not as good as a 14 or 12.

[Robby]

I've made all three, 12, 16, 20, and successfully hunted fur and fowl with them, also shoot trap with them. For me, its the 16Ga., especially with round ball.
Robby

[Salkehatchie]

OK, I'm getting educated.


Why, is a 16 RB more accurate than a 20 RB?

Thanks.

[Feltwad]

For me my favourite gage is 12 this is for game shooting using shot ,shooting ball here in the UK can only be used on a military approved range and then your smoothbore shotgun becomes a firearm and must be entered on a firearms certificate.I also shoot the big gage guns from a 4  down to a 12 with shot these are for wildfowl.
Feltwad

[Majorjoel]

At my shooting club there has been a very big change-over from the 20 guage smoothbore used mostly in the trade gun shoots to the 28 guage smoothy. I do not know the reason why but everyone seems to be going to the smaller bore size. In the cartridge world the 16 guage is my favorite shooter. I have an old German hammer double sxs.

[Randy Hedden]

The downside to 20's is the 16 bore will be more accurate with ball and handle larger charges of shot in normal "square" loads.

Daryl,
Why would a 16 gauge smooth bore be more accurate with ball than a 20 gauge smooth bore? A few years ago the most accurate smooth bores shot at Friendship were 28 and 24 gauge smooth bores. A lot of the primitive smooth bore shooters were going to the smaller gauges for better accuracy with ball.

Randy Hedden

www.harddogrifles.com

[Daryl]

OK, I'm getting educated.


Why, is a 16 RB more accurate than a 20 RB?

Thanks.

 The larger the ball, the more accuracy 'potential' there is.  A 24 pounder cannon has better accuracy than a 2 pounder, than a 4 bore, than a 12 bore etc.  If one chooses not to 'find' the most accurate load for his 16 bore, it will be less accurate than a smaller bore that someone has diligently worked up loads for.  To this I also offer - you cannot 'pick' a powder charge and use it thinking it will be the most accurate load.  These guns are no different than rifles in regards accuracy. They require load development just as rifles do, and also as do shotguns. As with rifles, there are 'prescription' loads that will do OK, but as with rifles, they are only a guideline for initial starting loads.

 We have smoothbore shooters at local and Provincial rendezvous who can challenge rifle shooters when on trails shooting gong targets. It's when the paper targets come out, that the smoothbores suffer.  This is due to the smoothbores, while giving good hunting accuracy over average hunting ranges, fail somewhat with the pinpoint accuracy capability of rifles - in some hands.

 As to the even smaller smoothbores use, well perhaps because they kick less due to heavier barrel weights in the same size barrels.  Wouldn' t be the first time people changed to less heavy recoiling weapons.

[Daryl]

I'm going to add some more of my thoughts on this accuracy deal, instead of further modifying my previous post.  On paper, I've been able to obtain 8" groups consistantly with black powder and 14 bore round balls in a 12 bore smoothy.  Yes - it was a modern ctg. gun, but was a double which lends even more innaccuracy into the equation.  I had to develope accurate loads for it to make it shoot as well as it did.  I don't mind telling you that a 12 bore, laoded to give this kind of accuracy at 100 yards, in my case at least, kicks quite hard. Taylor was there when I was testing and can atest to my results.  Spun me around like a weathercock - was one result. When I braced myself against the recoil, the stock broke through the wrist - was repared and held for further testing. I might also add the loads that shot the best were 7 drams 2F and a 484gr. round ball- not something one would want to shoot out of an 8 pound gun. I think my 'pelter' weighed 7 1/2 pounds. Bit brutal, but effective - that 7 dram load was the African load, by the way. See - recoil does come into it.  I would be prepared to shoot around 100gr. to 120 2f in a 16 bore before finding it's most accurate load.

  If that's too much recoil, a person could do as everyone else has and go to a smaller bore that will kick less but gives acceptable accuracy. That said, a 16 will likely shoot 80 to 85gr. 2f fairly well for shooting out to 40 yards.  My 12 didn't like less than 151gr. (5 1/2 drams) I know Taylor's 10 bore Bess shoots reasonably well with 100gr. 2F.  My 12 didn't like that load at all.  One 20 bore I tested shot 3" for 5 shots at 50 yards using 85gr. 2F and a .023" denim patch with a .595" ball. It was a tighter combination than many guys will load in their 20 bore smoothbores, but does show what can happen.  Many guys I've seen shooting 20's think even 75gr. 2F kicks to much, so they accept crappy accuracy when using 60gr. to 65gr. - but are apt to complain a lot when they miss consistantly.  At 25 yards, most smoothbores will rival rifles for accuracy - ie: 1 hole for 5 shots.  It's at longer ranges that rifles take over.  We've done 2 1/2" at 50 yards with Taylor's Bess. It's a 10 bore, as I indicated and uses .740" balls with .030" denim patches. Tight, but seems to shoot quite cleanly - never needing to be wiped.

[Harnic]

I'm a big fan of 12 ga & if I build a smoothbore (quite likely) it will be a 12.  You can shoot light shot loads no problem & can boost it up to 2 ounces if need be.  A .715 ball just by it's mass (as Daryl stated above) is a lot harder to knock off course & tends to get where it was pointed very reliably.  Just my 2 bits.

[Roger Fisher]

My shooter smoothy is a 28 gauge.  This is for W walks and line shoots w/a r ball.
I went with a 28 because of the slightly heavier barrel (better holding), cheaper to shoot and most of all I noticed several shooters with a 20 that developed a sweet flinch due to recoil.

With shot she is a loser; but shot is seldom required at our shoots...

I have another on the bench and drilled the pilot hole for the tang screw last night and hit an 'X' on the trigger plate, so I'm savoring the moment. She is also a 28 gauge.  (I'm used to swimming upstream, so take that under consideration)

[Daryl]

I kinda like the idea of a 28 or 32 smoothbore myself- perhaps a 15/16" for my new .40 stock. So- squirrel rifle and pelter on one stock.  If building one for trail walks, I'm pretty solid on a 16 bore. Lower recoil than the larger gauges but a heaviy enough ball for slose moose and elk, not to mention - no, I dare not,   ahhhhhhh OK - - grizzly - oh well, couldn't resist.  I was also thinking a nice 4 bore blunderbuss might be a surprise for a maurading grizzly - if the flash of 12 drams didn't blind me, maybe it would him?  The 4 ounce ball would just be icing on the cake.  I really should stop visiting nitroexpress.com - too many 10, 8, 4 and 2 bores being pictured and talked about there (doubles and singles).  I feel a plug for that site shouldn't be too out of line here - I plug this site there, as often as possible.

[northmn]

One of the contributors to these threads makes the comments that if you use ball a rifle will do anything a smoothbore will do better.  If you are building a fusil for competition to shoot roundball I can see the use of a smaller bore.  A 20 gauge has molds available at a much more reasonable cost than a 16.  Lyman quit making their 648 mold so now one has to get a mold either used or through custom makers.  Personall I consider the smoothbore a shot shooter that I will occasionally use a ball in.  For that a bigger bore like a 16 is far better.  As has been stated, you get better performance with a light charge in a bigger bore than with a heavy charge in a small bore.  Most that use shot in their flintlock smooth bores also pot shoot, (I will do so on ruffed grouse with no guilt) which tends to equalize the shot string effect.  A "square" load in a 16 is one ounce, which is very usable.  If one looks at loading tables for a modern 20, one will discover that the 1oz "Express" load is actually a magnum load and is reflected in MV.  So called Express velocities are achieved in a 20 with 7/8 oz.  A 20 gauge RB weighs about 325 grains.  I have had 20's and 12's.  I like the 12's much better and would prefer a 16 anyday over any of the little fellas.

DP

[Daryl]

I think Jeff Tanner's moulds are still around $30.00 US.  They were $23.00 when I bought the two I have.  I think I'd order one around .630" for a true 16 bore smoothbore. Being close to .030" smaller than the bore, would easily allow a nice fit with a .020" denim patch with minimal compression and easy loading.

[Collector]

A "true" 16 ga. being a .660" bore?  Some of these 16 ga. bores tend to be a mite bit this side or that of 'true' and then some.  Mine is an early Getz barrel and mikes to a .652.  I've got two RB moulds for that one, a .625 and a .630 and had to have a custom wad cutter made up for it.  I've got another 16 ga. barrel on order from John Getz and am torn between getting the 'true' 16 ga. or another .652, since I've already got all the stuff for it anyway.  When I put my order in, John Getz told me he favors a .648 RB for his 16 ga. 

[Salkehatchie]

Ok, general consensus seems to be that the 16 gauge or larger is better for shot.  Even light loading for it, if needed.

Now...the problem is it also appear as if a "nice" powder charge is going to be needed to properly shoot a RB in a 16 guage with accuracy.

Cost is one factor in going up the scale, but what about the rest of the family?  100 + grains and a .648 RB is probably something momma is not going to use.  No matter what the effectivness of it is down range.  Not gonna happen.  It is a chore talking her into the 20 now.  I under load and shoot under 40 yds with her.

I take it from a post that unless I use 100 to 120 grains in setting up my RB shots that accuracy outside of 40 yds is going to suffer.  Don't want that either!  Is there a consensus on the powder useage here?  100 - 120 grains?  Am looking long term too as to cost.  Ain't no way I see the cost of our sport going anywhere but up, up and away over time.  None of my shots with RB and a smoothie are going to be over 60 yds.  For one thing, I just don't do it.  Secondly, my terrain just flat will not do it.  Cliffs, bluffs, sink holes, briar thickets, swamps and 80' ravines all in every 60 acres on the Missouri River.  Ergo...I want to be able to hit "the target" with a ball big enough to drop "it".  Am too darn old to be tracking some wounded deer for miles.  Did that archery hunting as a kid and things have changed!!!!

[Daryl]

Smaller the bore, the less powder they will shoot - easy as that. There are few who cotton to the loads I am willing to use to get the best accuracy from a gun.  Many use 65 to 75gr. in their 20 bores and figure they're doing just fine - more power to them.  I don't like the arched trajectories nor the innacuracy I see from such loads.  At close range, light powder charges shoot just fine. When you have to lift your eye up in the air to get the arched ball on target, accuracy also suffers.

 Build a small bore smoothie for a recoil sensitive person - build a large bore smoothbore for someone who wants to shoot and hit hard a bit farther out.

[Salkehatchie]

Daryl, never thought of it that way.  Lifting your eye up....

Thanks!

[northmn]

A 16 RB will definitely kick harder than a 20.  However, I don't know if a 20 is all that mild either.  Lighter charges help, but you are still looking at pushing a 320 grain ball and probably with 70-90 grains of powder.  Consider that 70 grains is not all that shabby of load in 45 or 50 cal rifles.  I never considered recoil sensitivity to be linear in that if they can shoot a 36 with 40 grains they will shoot a 40 with 50 grains a little worse.  I always felt that there were thresholds where one can shoot about equal with a variety of calibers.  Cost of shooting is about the same with shot and a little more with RB.  Neither a 20 or a 16 is particularly frugal.

DP

[Daryl]

Weight and design of the gun are so important that one may jump, kick and smack you in the face, while another just shoves.  Felt recoil is so  variable, person to person, that actual shooting is the only way to find out.  To me, the 14 bore lifts pretty good but is comfortable with it's heavy hunting load, while other people think it borders on murderous.

[Salkehatchie]

Another good point.  To my way of thinking, a French/Roman nosed stock profile would not be as good as a more traditional English straight comb profile with less drop.  Might be another way to circumvent the "recoil" issue.

[northmn]

When I build a rifle that may kick, I shoot it before finishing to eliminate any cheek smacking and double check fit.  The gun should recoil away from the face.  Most furniture used for fowlers also include a wide buttplate for a very good reason.  Fit on a smoothbore is more crucial, to me, than on a rifle.  We can contort a little to see the rifle sights.  On a shotgun, the fit is part of the sighting.  Trap guns have a high comb to shoot high as did some English guns adapted for shooting driven birds.  You should be able to adapt any style within reason to soften recoil.  The Roman nose can be made to slope away from the face on recoil.  On my last 12 gauge I goofed a little on the buttplate for looks because I was very conscious of the guns light weight.  It is very pleasant to shoot however as it kicks straight back with full buttplate contact, and away from the face.  Another thing I learned this year deer hunting.  A gun made to shoot in shirtsleeves at a Rondezvous is not always a good fit in a coat designed to keep you comfortable in single digit temps.

DP

[Salkehatchie]

Northmn:

Do you have a picture of the 12 ga. gun referred to?   

You mention fit for different seasons.  Figured that one out this last year.  Spent all spring and summer getting gear mic'd out just so so and come fall....  Live and learn!

Never had one, but have always heard that J. P. Beck guns were a sheer joy to shoot, due to stock profile.  Part of which is the butt plate styling.