Notching a breech face, playing with a pan…

[PPatch]

I’ve done my duty and combed the archives to naught, so, two questions please:

1. I have the barrel back where it belongs and printing black against the stock as it should. Therefore I have a very close idea where the touch hole must go if it is to end up center pan or close – The 3/8” diameter Chambers White Lighting liner however will hit the plug by about an 8th inch. The simple solution is to notch the breech face. Typically how is this done and what would it look like. I want to avoid a fowling trap and gas cutting issues. I am thinking too that going with a 1/4” dia. liner will put the hole directly in front of the breech plug, pretty much where it belongs or at least with very little notching required. I have a Rice B barrel, swamped that typically have the larger liner but I suppose the smaller will do(?).

2.  At this point also I can see that the bottom of the pan will come in at the very very bottom edge of the side flat, I am talking about a 64th until it shows the oblique and will obviously be cause for a powder trap behind the lock. I know it needs to go higher (how much?) but the lock mortise is pre-carved and must go where it lies. Looks like the only way is to take some wood out of the barrel channel but I couldn’t take very much and even If I do I will have very little web left and I can already tell that I will likely have to notch the barrel for the front lock screw.

I welcome your input gentlemen.

Dave

[Dennis Glazener]

I’ve done my duty and combed the archives to naught, so, two questions please:

1. I have the barrel back where it belongs and printing black against the stock as it should. Therefore I have a very close idea where the touch hole must go if it is to end up center pan or close – The 3/8” diameter Chambers White Lighting liner however will hit the plug by about an 8th inch. The simple solution is to notch the breech face. Typically how is this done and what would it look like. I want to avoid a fowling trap and gas cutting issues. I am thinking too that going with a 1/4” dia. liner will put the hole directly in front of the breech plug, pretty much where it belongs or at least with very little notching required. I have a Rice B barrel, swamped that typically have the larger liner but I suppose the smaller will do(?).

2.  At this point also I can see that the bottom of the pan will come in at the very very bottom edge of the side flat, I am talking about a 64th until it shows the oblique and will obviously be cause for a powder trap behind the lock. I know it needs to go higher (how much?) but the lock mortise is pre-carved and must go where it lies. Looks like the only way is to take some wood out of the barrel channel but I couldn’t take very much and even If I do I will have very little web left and I can already tell that I will likely have to notch the barrel for the front lock screw.

I welcome your input gentlemen.

Dave

Welcome to the world of pre-carves, not all of them but enough to make you want to tear your hair out. I would not hesitate to use the 1/4" vent liner and would stay away from notching the breech plug. But I would also re-check the math on the difference in a 1/4 and a 3/8 liner. A 1/4 inch sounds like a big difference in the diameter of the two liner threads.

I think you will need to drop the barrel enough to insure the bottom of the pan is covered or you will have a mess to deal with or, thinking out loud here, maybe consider soft soldering a piece of metal to the barrel in order to widen the flat enough to fill the gag. I have never done that but it should work, just make sure you soft solder it and not use high temp solder.
Dennis

[Dennis Glazener]

I just checked the diameter of a 1/4 white lighting liner threads and it was .248 and a 5/16 is .308, I don't have a 3/8 liner. That's a .160 difference in diameter divided by the two sides and comes out to .080" closer to the breech. If you have that much room you might use the 5/16 liner.
Dennis

[Nate McKenzie]

I've seen quite a few originals with the face of the plug notched.    Some look like it was done with a three corner file, others with a rat tail file.     

[PPatch]

I just checked the diameter of a 1/4 white lighting liner threads and it was .248 and a 5/16 is .308, I don't have a 3/8 liner. That's a .160 difference in diameter divided by the two sides and comes out to .080" closer to the breech. If you have that much room you might use the 5/16 liner.
Dennis

My 3/8ths liner mic's out at .375 dia. As close as I can tell I have 9/64ths (1.030? I am not a machinest) to center pan as things sit. I was not aware that Jim sold a 5/16ths liner, .080 might be the ticket.

Thank you Dennis!

[Lutes]

I agree with Dennis I would not notch the breech plug. Will create problems.

[PPatch]

I've seen quite a few originals with the face of the plug notched.    Some look like it was done with a three corner file, others with a rat tail file.    

Hello Nate;

I was told recently that "Every lock like this (Chambers Germanic style/size) used on an Early Lancaster and most originals I have seen has a notched breechplug face."

I am not opposed to doing it but would rather avoid if possible.

dp

[Acer Saccharum]

Whatever liner you use, you will want to be able to remove the plug without having to remove the liner first.

So you don't want the liner to enter the female thread of the breech.

An alternative: get Tom Snyder's internal coning tool. no liner interference at all. If you shoot out the touch hole, you can always line it later. (Snyder on the ALR)

[PPatch]

Whatever liner you use, you will want to be able to remove the plug without having to remove the liner first.

So you don't want the liner to enter the female thread of the breech.

An alternative: get Tom Snyder's internal coning tool. no liner interference at all. If you shoot out the touch hole, you can always line it later. (Snyder on the ALR)

Yes, and thank you Tom – another important consideration. I can’t see that the Chambers liner has provision for removal a’tall. I will keep your remark in mind.

dp

[T*O*F]

Whatever liner you use, you will want to be able to remove the plug without having to remove the liner first.
So you don't want the liner to enter the female thread of the breech.

Actually, when I do barrels that way, I run the tap back in and tap the little part of the liner that imposes on the threads.  However, the converse it true as you have to remove the breechplug to change the liner.

[mjm46@bellsouth.net]

Why are you hesitating on using the 1/4" WL Liner? I use them as my first choice on all my rifles and haven't had a problem, I think they work great. Just drill out the vent hole to 1/16" after installation.

On the barrel issue. Is the bottom flat firmly down? If it is I would get out a narrow scraper and start working it down some. If it isn't down all the way it could be the bottom oblique flats need some scraping or the tang needs to go deeper.

Good luck and don't get discouraged.

[Acer Saccharum]

2.  At this point also I can see that the bottom of the pan will come in at the very very bottom edge of the side flat, I am talking about a 64th until it shows the oblique and will obviously be cause for a powder trap behind the lock. I know it needs to go higher (how much?) but the lock mortise is pre-carved and must go where it lies. Looks like the only way is to take some wood out of the barrel channel but I couldn’t take very much and even If I do I will have very little web left and I can already tell that I will likely have to notch the barrel for the front lock screw.

I'm reading this part over, and have a few concerns. This rifle business is very much like a puzzle.
It sounds like the lock is so low that the touch hole could show above the frizzen when it's closed. The only real way to remedy this, if the lock is already inlet, is to lower the barrel. Lowering the barrel thins the web, which leaves less room for the front lock bolt. So you may have to use a fake front bolt.

[FlintFan]

Notch the plug, and have no hesitation about doing so.  There are endless examples of this being done on original guns, including very high end guns.  If you are concerned about fouling in the threads clean your gun with a flushing system.  And if you are really concerned, pull the breech plug once a season for cleaning.  After about two years of pulling the plug you will discover that there is no fouling in the threads, and no other concerns what so ever about having a notched plug, and you will go back to cleaning your gun in a conventional way.  

[PPatch]

Why are you hesitating on using the 1/4" WL Liner? I use them as my first choice on all my rifles and haven't had a problem, I think they work great. Just drill out the vent hole to 1/16" after installation.

On the barrel issue. Is the bottom flat firmly down? If it is I would get out a narrow scraper and start working it down some. If it isn't down all the way it could be the bottom oblique flats need some scraping or the tang needs to go deeper.

Good luck and don't get discouraged.

Not discouraged Micah – prodding on here. These are minor concerns overall and I am enjoying the process. This hunk of wood is beautiful and will make a fine rifle, the components in this kit are top notch, so no worries there. I should add that this maple is a joy to work compared to other woods I have tackled.

I have been scraping only the oblique flats on the wood and have draw filed the barrel. The back  inch of the barrel is printing on the bottom of the channel (just barely), as is the middle, I will bring it on down and in the process that will finally tell me where the pan falls in relation to the side flat. It won’t be far up the flat. I know where the touch hole should go but must now bring the lock bolster on in so I can really know where things lie.
 
Dave

[PPatch]

2.  At this point also I can see that the bottom of the pan will come in at the very very bottom edge of the side flat, I am talking about a 64th until it shows the oblique and will obviously be cause for a powder trap behind the lock. I know it needs to go higher (how much?) but the lock mortise is pre-carved and must go where it lies. Looks like the only way is to take some wood out of the barrel channel but I couldn’t take very much and even If I do I will have very little web left and I can already tell that I will likely have to notch the barrel for the front lock screw.

I'm reading this part over, and have a few concerns. This rifle business is very much like a puzzle.
It sounds like the lock is so low that the touch hole could show above the frizzen when it's closed. The only real way to remedy this, if the lock is already inlet, is to lower the barrel. Lowering the barrel thins the web, which leaves less room for the front lock bolt. So you may have to use a fake front bolt.

Thanks again Tom - I am aware of those potentials and tomorrow when I get the chance to work on the rifle I will check out things with the frizzen in place - then too I have some more scraping to do in the barrel channel (not much) so that will clear matters somewhat. Film at 11... )

[Acer Saccharum]

Carry on, Dave. I don't envy your problem.

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Dave, I use the 1/4 inch liners with no problem  I now prefer using Tom Snyder's tool and making an internally coned touch hole with no liner.. I use the 1/4" and it works fine. if it ever burns out a liner can be inserted. I don't like cutting the breech face. I have built a flintlock with a fake front lock nail. (it hooks)..... The most serious and primary issue is getting the lock high enough that powder can't fall between it and the barrel.....on the other hand mounting the lock low makes for easier mainspring clearance from the barrel and allows better architecture in the breech/wrist area/lock panels on some guns...  Look over the situation from all angles before cuttting

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Don't be concerned about a thin web under the breech of the barrel.  All you need is room enough for the for'd lock nail, and you can always use a skinnier for'd nail.  And cutting a shallow notch in the bottom flat will give you all the room you need.  I like to get the for'd nail in the centre of the for'd boss of the lock plate, rather than above centre like I've seen on some contemporary rifles.  A worse situation is having the for'd nail pierce the rod hole and cause problems in there.  So, bottom line...lower the barrel in it's channel to move the touch hole up the side flat.

[T*O*F]

In regards to notching the breech face, some historical reference is needed.  No, I can't quote page and verse of the reference, however this is the gist of it.

Flintlock military firearms had a drilled touch hole even with the breech face.  As late as the Civil War, when firearms were brought in from the field, many were "percussioned" using the drum method.  Since the touch hole was even with the breech face, it was necessary to notch the face of the breechplug, since the drum would encroach on the breech threads.  This operation was called "Onbriching."  Literally thousands of firearms were converted using this method.

Thus, it stands to reason that guns which have notched breech faces either had them done as a result of adding a touch hole liner to a flintlock with a drilled touch hole; or, were converted to percussion using the above method.

[Stophel]

My only original flintlock has the breechface notched, but not much.

I don't like to notch plugs, and I have gotten where I'm pretty good about laying out everything so it's not necessary (including cutting down overly long breech plugs), but if I have to, it doesn't bother me so much as it used to.

If I MUST use a touch hole liner, I will stop the threads in the barrel just short of breaking through, so the liner has a solid shoulder to stop on and won't go into the bore or interfere with threads. 

[Acer Saccharum]

......a touch hole liner, I will stop the threads in the barrel just short of breaking through, so the liner has a solid shoulder to stop on and won't go into the bore or interfere with threads. 

To add to Herr Stophel's comment:
If the bbl wall thickness is enuff, the liner will naturally fall short of being in the thread. I usually reach a (%#A*X) dremel in there with a ball burr, and radius the cone/barrel wall transition. No patch gets caught on the sharp corners.

[PPatch]

UPDATE: After some careful measuring this morning I am confident of the following:

ONE: I have 5/16ths of wood under the barrel at the breech end (my web thickness).

TWO: The ramrod channel is 3/8ths dia. At the breech end.

THREE: I gained 1/16th up the side flat this morning by aggressively shaving wood on the bottom oblique’s. Now showing good black in the bottom of the barrel channel out to about five inches and some black at the muzzle – as I let down more barrel the middle swamped part should begin showing black also.

Four: The not so good news… The frizzen cover when closed will cover the touch hole by about 3/64ths. (thank you Tom for pointing this out) This means that I have to shave out at least that much which will leave approximately 1/16 inch wood below the barrel. Master Sapergia says being thin in that area is ok, I believe him.

Obvious solution: Take much more wood out of the barrel channel, I have some to play with but each chip lowers the web thickness. The lock screw will likely be ok, but if needed it or the barrel can be modified accordingly.

Tim: I will be going with the ¼ inch liner – thank you and everyone else who recommended I do so. It is still going to be a close thing but I can install it a bit forward of center-pan if need be.

Dave

[Acer Saccharum]

Just a note, the flash hole can be covered by the edge of the frizzen. I have built guns like that intentionally to keep the touchhole covered and clear until fire in the pan.

You just don't want to see the touch hole on the side of the barrel when the frizzen is CLOSED. If that is the case, the lock is WAY TOO LOW.

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

When the frizzen is closed you want it to cover the touch hole. The ideal height of the touch hole is centered on a line that crosses from the top edge of the pan to the other top edge of the pan. If it is higher that wont hurt anything either according to Pletch's research IIRC,, Looks best if the hole doesn't show when the frizzen is closed....... I have one small siler that has a little tab on the frizzen pan lid  next to the barrel that comes down and seals the touch hole when the frizzen is closed,!! 

[Stophel]

Ok, if your liner is not in yet, you know you CAN put it below the centerline of the barrel.  

problem solved.

and HOW big is your "web" right now???  5/16"