Tennessee Features

[WadePatton]

Feel free to redirect me to where ever this has been discussed before, my search turned up little.  So the Q is this:

If you are/were/would building a TN rifle what features do you feel are definitive of that style rifle-mostly with respect to the shaping of the wood as we're likely all aware of skinny boxes/holes, crescents, and iron furniture. 

What are the "unwritten" rules?   And i do understand that there was at least one or two exceptions to all the rules ever -as no builder was free from influence or individualism.

Recap on my rifle parts: English lock, 42" swamped, crescent, iron, double set, curly maple, 4" drop, no cast.

[WadePatton]

or, in the alternative, how's about discussing where you (the learned) find that the TOTW plans and/or kit fail to "represent" or where more variance would/would not be tolerated by someone attempting to hit that mark.

or is that it?  hit four or five (of 6-7) marks and call it good.

yes i dug through the archival stuff here last year.  a lot of digging for just a few examples.  i've handled a few made by John Anderson and Tip Curtis, but as a novice builder, it could be very easy for me to miss something easily picked up by the old-timer as a no-do.

capistrano?

[LynnC]

Boy that's a tall order.

The only thing that comes to mind right off is that stock wood could be maple, walnut, or cherry, lock panels are often a bit on the heavy side, RR entry is an area of difference and fore ends I've seen shaped either oval or V shaped.

Best I can advise is handle originals (I know, tough to find, me too) and lots of books and pictures 

Oh, and talk to the Southern Mountain builders here..............Lynn

[MarkEngraver]

Here's tutorial Ken G did awhile back in the Gun building section of ALR

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=10960.0

Mark

[JCKelly]

I recall that the set triggers are not placed on the centerline of the trigger plate. Right now I disremember whether they are offset to the right or left, someone with an original Tennessee rifle to hand can answer this.

Not obvious that anyone makes such triggers. Think you must make your own, at least the plate. What the h, store-bought triggers seldom look right anyway, just saw & file them out of mild steel & case-harden, or 1095 & through harden. If you do not know how to make triggers - I didn't but made 'm anyway - get a store-bought set to copy the parts. The only set triggers I ever made from scratch were perhaps a little small for your rifle. However you do it, if you make off-set triggers like the gentlemen in Tennessee did originally, you get bragging rights. Talk like, of course everyone knows this is the way it should be.

[Bob Roller]

I made some triggers in the 1960's that were off center but I
don't remember who wanted them or why.I do remember thinking
they looked like a botched job and a PITA.

Bob Roller

[WadePatton]

Well yeah, i'll check into the offset trigger thing--but i doubt i'd actually do it.  i might get tired of all the esplainin' of the "botched job" as Bob says.

which guy?

yes on the woods, like that freedom and will try to exploit it as i go on...that last cherry-stocked one i saw on here really caught my eye.

thanks. sfsg

[WadePatton]

yes, of course i've been through that collection a time or two.

but i know maybe that some guys on here have seen hundreds of others and was hoping to draw more of them out.  i've heard of a rather large collection being "pulled out of circulation" because of some tiff between the owner and someone in the "historic preservation" type crowd.  let's keep it civil.

Here's tutorial Ken G did awhile back in the Gun building section of ALR

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=10960.0

Mark

[Bob Roller]

 Concerning Tn.rifles with offset triggers. Has anyone ever pulled a lock
from one of these rifles to see if a sear arm is shorter than it should be?
That offset trigger could be a compensator for that kind of problem.
I never really knew why I was requested to make the few that I did in
the 1960's and it could be that the customer had some locks like the ones
found on breech loading hammer fired shotguns and needed that offset
in the triggers.As I recall,the offset was very severe by his request.
About 20 years ago at Friendship,a man brought in a gun to the armory with such a
lock and had driven a fired case from a 22 Magnum over the sear arm
to give it more length and the set triggers wrecked the brass case in one shot
and he wanted Willy Boitnott to fix it. I think Willy told him he was a mechanic,
not a magician.
Something to think about----maybe.

Bob Roller

[rich pierce]

Wade, it's common among the mail order houses to offer a "Tennessee" rifle as though they were all made the same and it's a model like a 94 Winchester or something.  Scores of gunsmiths, working across a wide distance in time and geography, trained by different folks and with different artistic eyes and practices made Tennessee rifles.  It's like asking what's right for a Pennsylvania rifle.  Try comparing the 1750's?1760's? Marshall rifle with a 1820's Bedford  or an 1820's Bedford with an 1820's Lancaster and you see what I mean.  I'd advise you to just build a generic rifle and not worry or pretend it represents something specific in history.  The alternative is to study originals, find a style or builder you like, and build something similar to what that builder made.  Going halfway, asking what's a Tennessee supposed to be like, and trying to sort out the answers, will result in a hodge-podge.

[bgf]

I get the impression that the question is actually more along the lines of what features are specific to the "Upper East Tn." style?  The kit(s) at TOTW is/are not bad attempts at a generic rendering, but like reading the Bowdlerized version of Shakespeare.  I would pick one original I liked and follow that one closely.

If the question is truly what features are common to rifles built in Tn., then there is no answer beyond they all have locks, stocks and triggers. 

[Don Getz]

How many guns have you looked at and said, "hey, these triggers aren't centered".  or, how many double set triggers
have you seen where the triggers within it were not centered?    On the other hand, I probably have installled some that
were not centered, but I didn't really want them done that way..........Don

[timM]

Concerning offset triggers on some original E Tennessee rifles, JC Kelly correctly mentioned triggers being offset in the trigger plate. 

I have observed this feature and it was done to allow room for a style of spring mounting that positioned the trigger spring to one side of the trigger plate. Respectfully, tim

[WadePatton]

Thanks Tim.

As many of the TN's i've handled have been by "unknown" and the rest by some-guy-never-heard-of.  So yeah, eventually I'll work into what I think a "WP TN" should be. 

Plenty of leeway, until i name a maker/county/time frame eh?

I just don't want to wind up with something looking completely out of whack wrt "the TN/Southern gun of the later period".  It's a bit of a broad canvas, but i don't want to "go outside the lines" too far...except for novice hackatude.

to the shop...

[WadePatton]

Oh and hey i'm going to restart a conversation i was having with a contemporary builder last year.  I just now "refound" his collection-and thence his name. I couldn't recall if we had spoken i email or pm or which forum etc. 

If it develops into fodder for discussion here, i'll bring it to this thread (with permission)-or just have our convo here.

Because i can look at numerous photos of his work and inquire over them i can get a feel for where his interpretation comes from and what i might be changed w/o stepping too far "out of school".  IIRC we had discussed "regions" of TN building but then I mention this to a semi-local expert who snorted something about "over 2,000 (or some such big numeric) builders identified in TN", implying that there was no point in trying to group them in any way.  And i hadn't really studied on it since.  Now is when i study again. 

Grasshoppa sharpen chisel and gouges and sweep floor now.

[rsells]

I have a bit of info on the triggers being offset in the trigger plate.  I looked at the original TN rifles I have at home.  Two of them have the triggers center of the plate.  One (William Douglas rifle) is what I call a hardware trigger and one was hand made by the smith (J.C. Atkinson) who made the rifle. The third has the triggers off to one side.  It is unsigned built with Unicoi characteristics.  I looked at 15 sets of original triggers I have and 13 were centered in the plate, and two were off center in the trigger plate.

I agree with TimM in that the off center triggers gives room for a spring to run from the back of the trigger assembly forward to the front trigger.  The centered triggers had the front trigger spring coming into the trigger from the front of the trigger bar.

On rifle characteristics, I would recommend that you look at original rifles if they are available.  If none are available, I would recommend that you get Jerry Noble's books on South  Rifles and Dave Byrd's book on Gunmakers of Buffalo Valley and Greasy cove for reference.
                                                                 Roger Sells

[Jim Kibler]

Again, with something like this, talk alone is of little value.  If your serious, you'll find originals or photos of originals and study for more hours than you could imagine.  That's how you learn what "Tennessee Features" are. This sort of thing is a never ending pursuit.  You're not going to understand by a post on the internet or by just talking to a collector.

[WadePatton]

I've looked and looked at everything i can see.

I ask about _your_ opinions (and maybe the development thereof).  I'm trying to learn from the learned, not just my novice eyeballs.

There are things i don't see...i'm sure. Two-pronged question actually.  I'd like to minimize my novice "errors" before i post the rifle up here for full-on scrutiny.  

AND i'm supremely curious as to how folks come to their own notions of what they put into a TN or E. TN or Southern Mt. gun.  BECAUSE when you look at all the examples (the teeny percentage extant) you'll see lots of DIFFERent approaches.  

But i know just as sure as there is water underneath the ocean where there's a hole in the bottom of the sea, that somebuddy will look at my completed piece and say,

"Oh man tha's not very TN."  this should be that and that should be the other...

Suffice it to say my favorite things to look at are Keith and Ken's interpretations, as well as John Anderson's (I'd look more at Tippy's, but he's too far away-i make about one trip per year), but John and I are "butting heads" over what i do to the bbl.  I don't like "unfaded" blue or brown and will probably do some of both and keep rubbing 'em back to get what i want--which necessitates a little "aging" of the wood, which i'll do more with color than beating.  IOW i ain't doing the NOS look.

THANKS to you folks who have sent me photos of originals.  If it's published online, then i've likely seen it.  I'll surely make the TN/KY show in the Spring.  I hope to build at least 1 if not 2 more in TN/SM style.  Then who knows? I don't need but two.  should be a dozen at least.

right now i've got to re-define my centreline for the buttstock as the planed board is not square.   Out-of-plane reference faces suck (now i'll used the bbl only-which is fun with the tapers and all...  but that's not the Q.

[WadePatton]

all due respect but

You'd be surprised what i have learned on the internet.  It is where i get to talk to dozens of connoisseurs of all walks and areas of the world wrt many different things.  It has allowed me to actually find folks who build longrifles and attend longrifle events without driving all over $#*! and hiwassee.

I can go to a  (longrifle) show and absorb a lot, get sensory overload, and forget a lot more than i can pick up here and reference and re-reference.

I know this as I do one trade show (non-gun) each year.  I quit trying to see everything there (in the 3 days).  It's more about shaking hands and having some face time with the pals i otherwise only know from the internet.  the product there is more about fitment of body and purpose than stylistic/historic interpretation.

the internet is what we make of it. 

How about someone posts up a pic of a TN rifle that differs from the "TN rules"?  they're out there.  all the old-timers (from real life) tell me they are.

[Jim Kibler]

There's nothing wrong with the internet as a resource.  It's marvelous.  My only point is that to "get" something such as school or regional characteristics, a great deal of study over time is required.  You must put the work in yourself.  The only way I really learn is to study or do something myself.  Sure, guidance is good, but it's a heck of a lot more helpful if you've tried and put the time in first.  You'll know what questions to ask and where you're going.  That's all I've got to say.

 

[Pete G.]

Back to the question at hand............A thin comb seems to be pretty common. Details are fine, but architecture is what makes the gun. Unfortunately orthographic photographs don't really show some things very well.

[WadePatton]

Hey, lemme ask a specific one there Pete, et al;

I glanced at (the same old) pre-carved stocks for kits last night.  The joint offered Early TN, TN, and Southern, with two different offside stock profiles.

I've not really considered the offside butt profile.  Appears that one of them has a gradual curving shape (as per moderns) and one or both of the others form a peak of sorts from more angular shaping--a bit like a four pointed star in cross-section-where the cheek is the fat point and this one is opposite-ish, with the tops rounded and bottom squared.

foller?

any opinions or comments wrt these buttstock differences?  Opinions only, no need for consensus.

edit: oh yeah, you can't do a banana box on the angular sort--just a grease hole or two. 

ps Anybody can point me to any more builders (beyond KL and KG-thanks guys) in this style_who also happen to have_online galleries, please do.  Also please let me know of "under the radar" guys w/in a hunnert or two miles of me. thanks.  

pss I'll start shooting with the localist shooting group, Elk River Longrifles, as soon as I'm done venison chasing this year.  I'll get to see more then too.

[rsells]

The  KRA show held in Norris, TN will have a bunch of original Southern rifles on display.  You can learn a bunch by going and looking at the originals that are there.
                                                                                        Roger Sells

[WadePatton]

The  KRA show held in Norris, TN will have a bunch of original Southern rifles on display.  You can learn a bunch by going and looking at the originals that are there.
                                                                                        Roger Sells

Yes, was supposed to go last time but ride share thing didn't happen.  Plan to attend this next one if i have to ride a mule.  what does 2.5 highway hours convert in mule trail days?

[Keb]

I've a few guns made by an old fella by the name of Salvo. Some of you may remember him. If you knew him, you can't forget him. Anyway, he made some "Southern" type guns. Most of the ones I have are all similar in style. I'm no student of any particular gun style and I'm not real fond of these types but I happened to own a few of his. He forged all the iron mounts on all his guns. He made the little ash gun lock, barrel, triggers & all the mounts, too. He was a better knife & hawk maker than gun maker in my opinion. He also made some pretty nice bows.

1st is a .25 cal, L&R lock, walnut wood, 44" Rayl swamped bbl:
















next .40 cal, L&R lock, maple wood, 43" swamped bbl:




next .20 cal smoothbore, ash totally made by Salvo: