Tennessee Features

[Pete G.]

I wanna see instide that double patchbox.......

[MarkEngraver]

Yeah, I'd like to see how the hinge was put together !

[WadePatton]

winner winner chicken dinner!

Thanks Keb.  I'm going to refresh my glass o' tea and dig into those photos.

[WadePatton]

Yeah, I'd like to see how the hinge was put together !

let's start a forum betting pool, winner is whomever describes it best before the "reveal".

hold on Keb, let the ciphering begin.

[Keb]

It's tucked away in a very elaborate safe so it may take a few days to get pics. I'm busy repairing/packing my rondyvoo trailer for the SEPR. Leaving Monday.

[Dphariss]

The  KRA show held in Norris, TN will have a bunch of original Southern rifles on display.  You can learn a bunch by going and looking at the originals that are there.
                                                                                        Roger Sells

Yes, was supposed to go last time but ride share thing didn't happen.  Plan to attend this next one if i have to ride a mule.  what does 2.5 highway hours convert in mule trail days?

About 4 days if you are in shape
I drive 2.5 hours one way almost every month to attend a 10 shot rifle match. But then its 1 - 1.5 hours at least once a month to buy groceries.
If I could drive 2.5 hours to a show like the CLA show or ANYTHING with a lot of original rifles the time/cost would not be a factor.

It is impossible to provide anything the barest sketch of rifle styling in a venue such as this.


As Mr Kibler has said it takes a LOT of study.

Dan

[WadePatton]

I've handled a half-dozen maybe originals and seen a dozen contemporary in hand.

But i've viewed dozenS of both via this interwebulous.  I just don't understand the "you can see it but you can't have a discussion about it" wall that keeps popping up.  I suppose that will change some when i post up my finished piece and then the dogpile of what all i did wrong happens. 

I've found 3 guys who admit they build/sell TN and/or Southern Mountain style rifles, and I thank them for putting up photographs and for the historic links they give-when they give them.  Does anybody know of anybuddy else?

Maybe someday I'll catch Mr. Anderson when he's not so busy and we can photo-doc his work. 

Of course the more you know the deeper more complex whilst subtle it all becomes.  I'm still on the greenhorn side of it all.


whilst digging around the rest of the web:

Kid in a video describes his flintlock as a "Kentucky Pennsylvania Southern Mountain rifle"... I think i'm ahead of him on the learning curve...but then he's making smoke.  ... in another video "how-to" guy loads it all up and shows the viewer a complete misfire.  Folks will get "educated".  If all they can find are KPSM rifles and poorly loaded CVA's then, that's what they'll learn i reckon.

Last time i drove past Knoxville, i was getting comped fro my fuel.  Last KYTN show, my ride didn't pan out.  Anybody want to share a ride up there this time, LMK I can meet you on 40 anywhere from Lebanon to K-town. I'm coming out of Woodbury.

[WadePatton]

let me ask this of the "old guard" before i mash any toes (further),  may we discuss/comment on the various features of the above posted rifles?

I don't know the builder and it's implied that he's out of the rifle biz or dead.  Not to "critique" 'em, but to discuss any particular aspect wrt the Southern Breed.

[RAT]

I live about an hour west of Dan. To learn, I have to rely on photos and our annual gunmakers fair. That's about the only access we have.

Did someone say western regional show?

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I've resisted getting in on this thread, but must be having a benevolent moment.  Jim Kibler touched on the answer to your question, in his gentle way.
Although there are cross over's near the middle of the spectrum, there are two kinds of folks, as I see it.  There are those who study as much as they can (on their own) from various quantities of reference originals or literature, and then have at it, come what may.  And there are those who just want to talk about it.  This web site is a wonderful resource, with builders offering their work for perusal, critique and discussion, and offering advice when it is asked for.  But you'll notice perhaps that some of them have not weighed in on this discussion, because it's an unanswerable question.  
Wade, the advice you've received here is to study what you can, and then dig in to a build.  I want to build my first Southern Mountain rifle too, having seen and handled several of Ken Guy's rifles, and studied both contemporary and original rifles in picture form on this site and Contemporary blogspot, and also the CLA forum.  But still wanting more, I bought Jerry Noble's four book set, and poured over them for hours and hours.  What I've learned from this is that there are almost no wrong answers.  These rifles varied so much that you'd be hard pressed to build one that was not correct.  Some of you are now thinking - what a pile of bunk!  Of course there are nuances and regional features that are correct on one rifle and not on another.  But unless you commit chisel and rasp to wood, you'll never get any closer than you are right now.
Good luck with your quest - perhaps as illusive as the Grail.

[Keb]

Wade, The fella (Salvo) that built the 3 I posted passed almost 3 years ago. You can discuss and critique all you want. It won't hurt my feelings. As I said, I'm not a fan of these types of guns and I know very little about them. I'm good with that

[WadePatton]

thanks for the positive responses. Yes, i'm mid-build right now, but never hold back the opportunity to learn and the web makes is so easy for us to share.

Just trying to offer some middle-ground between "learning" all you can studying the notions that TOTW and other pre-carve/pre-made gun companies offer. 

I understand about the book set. I know that the man needs to sell books, I can't wait to buy mine own copies, but right now i have no steady income stream and need to sell off stuff to make that purchase.  But first i have to fix a tractor tire.

Was hoping we could share _here_ and develop some guidance for all those other newb/wannabe/first-timers who haven't had the time or opportunity to handle all the extant examples of Southern work.  So long as everyone knows that there are no "absolute truths" (wrt anything really), that we're working with a broad canvas--but that there are some things that would raise big red flags if they were incorporated into a TN/SM build.

heckfire amigos, what is -your- idea of the difference in "Southernn Mtn" and "Tennessee" (any portion)?

I'm just happy that i like the regional style and hope to build a few as such.

I'm done with the tabbed  sort of entry pipe.  I'll either build w/o and entry pipe or will do the flat/round sort as depicted above next time.  ... I also would have been better served by Recreating the American Longrifle if I'd read the second sentence of the entry-pipe chapter before i spent half my life letting the heifer in.  (i read that last night-after completion).  Best lessons are those hard learned eh?

[WadePatton]

I'll speak to one other part: I don't care for rounded locks nor super fat lock panels.  But i've seen "pointed" locks and trimmer lock panels on originals, so i'm not stepping too far out there methinks.  It is an English sort of lock, which i understand were the clear majority used, but that I have no doubt German locks were used as well. (there's one somewhere)

And i'm pretty sure i'm going to blue my bbl.  JA disagrees, but that blue clearly goes way back beyond the 1800's (per some reading i did last night) and that I'll weather and age it to knock the pimp factor down somewhat.   Or i may brown it.  It's just that the "bottle brown" i so often see just doesn't do it for me.

[Dennis Glazener]

but that I have no doubt German locks were used as well.

Very, very few, in fact I have not seen an original southern mountain rifle with a German flintlock that I can remember.

Not all English lock are "round tailed" the late Ketland by Chambers is an example as well as the late English by Davis, L&R's Durs Egg, Manton as well as others that I forget right now, are all English locks that fine for southern mountain rifles. To me nothing stands out more than a southern mountain rifle with a Siler or other Germanic style lock on it. Kinda looks like a Yankee import
Dennis

[David Rase]

I'll speak to one other part: I don't care for rounded locks nor super fat lock panels. 

These "super fat lock panels" you talk about are sometimes needed to obtain correct architecture in the area between the wrist and lower forestosk.  If you examine many originals, you will see that the area directly below the lock and side panels is fairly flat.  If you use too large a diameter ramrod and/or leave the web of wood between the bottom of the barrel channel and the top of the ramrod hole too thick, you will be left with a choice, either leave the lock panels thick and have correct architecture on the underside of the stock or narrow the lock panels and round the heck out of the bottom of the stock between the side and lock panels, thus ruining the entire look of the rifle.  If given the choice between the two, I will take thick lock panels every time. 
I just inlet a barrel and drilled the ramrod hole for a Gillespie rifle I am stocking up.  Since there is no front lock bolt in this particular rifle I left the web of wood between the barrel channel and ramrod hole at 1/16".  Coupled with a Chambers late Ketland lock I will be able to keep the lock panels moderately sized and the bottom of the stock fairly flat achieving the correct look and architecture.   

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Wade you are getting advice from those who know what they are talking about.  Be very careful to not smoke your own exhaust.   You seem to be saying a lot but not listening to the answers people are giving you to your question  ..... that doesn't encourage folks to share their opinions with you.    I like your questions and you are obviously a thoughtful guy.  just a little coaching here for you. 

[Bob Roller]

I doubt if any top of the line Britlocks were ever used on a Tn.rifle
but they do look good and the performance was there.As some of
you may know,these locks were made by lock filers that were trying to
obstruct the oncoming percussion system that finally did them in.
They certainly left us with some marvelous relics to study and try to
emulate.
My limited study of Tn.and Southern guns tells me that there wasn't
even one that was alike, much less two. Utility,not perfection was
the order of the day.I much prefer these simple,iron trimmed or
no trimmed rifles.

Bob Roller

[Jim Kibler]

Probably more like "lock filers who were trying to meet the expectations of their boss and feed their families".  Not too romantic for a 19th century British craftsman.

[WadePatton]

Wade you are getting advice from those who know what they are talking about.  Be very careful to not smoke your own exhaust.   You seem to be saying a lot but not listening to the answers people are giving you to your question  ..... that doesn't encourage folks to share their opinions with you.    I like your questions and you are obviously a thoughtful guy.  just a little coaching here for you. 

hey thanks for that.  I don't mean to be so hard-headed, but i get miffed now and then by those who intimate that the _only_ way to learn is to buy the books and handle the rifles. The best way sure, but methinks one should adapt and improvise as he can.

I received a large assortment of Southern Rifle pics from an ALR member today.  (Thanks again) Will be cruising those the rest of the night.

[Bob Roller]

Nothing "romantic" about those fine locks.Those lock makers/filers
were trying to save their different trades. I have before me a large format book
called "The American Gun" and there is an article by Robert Held called "Fuses,
Flints and Pyrites" that traces external ignition from the matchlock to the precussion
cap.It tells of a Manton fowler,a sterling example of the flintlock at the very height
of its evolution with tiny,gold plated,sure fire pans,rollered frizzen springs,linked
mainsprings and patent antechchamber breeches and goes on to say that the
flintlock was as near to perfection as mortal man could come.It ends by saying,his grandson
was purchasing a percussion double 12 bore from the celebrated shop of James Purdy.
It was also pointed out that the percussion cap would make the carnage of war even worse
than it already was. This is a fascinating read from a large format book from Spring,1961.

Bob Roller

[Jim Kibler]

Not to go off topic too far, but I think it should be understood that the people DOING the actual work in England in the 19th century were not the names we associate to the finished product.  The typical craftsman in 19th century England did not live a very good existence from what I understand.  Lock filers included.  The flintlock was the ignition source of choice for 200 years and there will naturally be resistance to change.  Yes, they were pushed to their limit.   Yes, some of this was gimmick and meant little.  The point is that your perspective looking back now is very different than it was at the time.  ESPECIALLY for those doing the work.  You can be sure it wasn't too romantic for them!

[WadePatton]

Next rifle gets 3 pipes, but a plain entry hole (no entry pipe atall, unless i bugger the transition).

by gum.

Also as well i may have mis-stated my "case" WRT lock panels somewhere above.  I was referring to the "border" of the panels-the wood left panel height before the transition down to wrist and down to forestock begins, not the thickness of the rifle across the panels.  but that seems like years away.

I have a tang to shape now.  FTR-will be much like the lollipop in the TOTW plans: zero flare, a stepped transition (from bbl flat width) then tapering down to about 1/4 before the round part where the rear screw goes through.

[WadePatton]

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=18547.0

Thanks Dennis.  I didn't think to search the term "TN".

preview:

[Dphariss]

W. Greener on gun locks in "The Gun"  1835.









Its an interesting insight into lock filers England. Since the locks on SM Rifles are almost all Birmingham.
By looking at the price range one can get an idea of what a cheap lock might go for. I suspect that flintlocks might be a little higher in any given quality level but not much in the lower grades anyway.
Anyone here want to file locks for 1/2 crown a bushel even if corrected for the price of Gold?

I agree that Germanic pointed locks look odd on SM rifles.
For those who don't like round tail locks these shapes are an option and would be period correct.




Though the Manton casting shown is a little more complex than one would find on an American gun except for a few east coast makers.

Dan

[WadePatton]

hey thanks for the text.  i'll read that closer on next view, but i have seen more than plenty enough -not rounded- locks in original guns to warrant my lock preferences. 

MOF that lock panel shape in the last rifle pictured this thread-is a better shape to my eye than the really fat "borders" -being only "partially fat".

Joseph Bogle used a lock just like mine and there are plenty (Soddy-Daisy is one) with panels more to my liking. 

I'm trying to represent the guy who built a rifle or three back then, who was influenced by others in the area but wasn't afraid to mix and match as he saw fit.  AND but though none of his rifles survived to be cataloged--or they haven't been found yet.  I'll bet there were more than a few who fit this idea.

But that I hope that any who find this thread can find some good ideas for their TN/SM type builds.  So thanks again for all positive discussion.