Author Topic: Jaded? (Read 13090 times)

b bogart · « **on:** July 08, 2008, 12:07:57 AM »

After hanging out with the ALR crowd for a bit, I may have become a bit jaded. Saturday I attended a community festival that included some "buckskinner" types. They were showing some of there old time treasures, and new made flinters. Nice introduction for those that have not had exposure previously. One gentleman kept correcting my lovely bride's explination about his longrifle to a neice and nephew. My wife was better informed than him, but we both remained silent until we moved on. His rifle looked good from a distance but.... lock panels that looked like a 2x4, inlays covering the barrel and ramrod pipe pins, etc, etc. Before I would have thought what a nice rifle. Now I know better? He was proud of it and it probably gave him several hours of enjoyment (looked like it had been shot a few times). More power to him!!! As for me I'm still struggling to get the first one in the vicinity of acceptable! Geez the things you learn if you aint careful!
Bruce

northmn · « **Reply #1 on:** July 08, 2008, 02:37:09 AM »

This forum can be almost intimidating when you first see what others are doing. I went through a small identity crisis after seeing some of them, but like to think I found my niche. First, this is a learning forum. I have thought about posting a thank you for a few little tricks I have picked up and may do so. For me learning is fun. I like to be challenged and I like to see what is possible. When I became truly jaded a few years ago I think part of it was because there was really no one to talk to. Its nice to get a friendly kick in the posterior at times. I ran into that with a very plain walnut stock. Look closely at the originals posted on antique collecting forum and you will see that they screwed up here and there and really were not the gods some like to make of them. I have seen some of the builders you are talking about and remember one that told me my guns were too slim. He did not have that problem with his. One gun he built was made by gluing together two boards and had a definite glue seam up the middle.

DP

J.D. · « **Reply #2 on:** July 08, 2008, 06:02:54 AM »

Some folks appear to be satisfied with their limited knowledge. Some simply don't know how to research these old guns. One can try to educate those buckskinner types, but some won't listen. Many will condemn those knowledgeable folks as authentinazis rather than try to learn something that opposes their limited view of history.

So, yeah, it is easy to become jaded, especially when someone who is ignorant of his lack of knowledge is so free with misinformation.

Learn all you can and enjoy the hobby for its own sake. Occasionally, you will run across someone who is interested in learning. When that happens, sharing your honest to God research might pique their interest in researching and building these old guns.

B Shipman · « **Reply #3 on:** July 08, 2008, 06:59:46 AM »

I'm not sure that jaded is the right word for most of us. Jaded implies dulled , worn out, satiated, or in this case , satisfied with having all the right answers. Few of us are like that and are used to the fact that often long held concepts are frequently called into question.

An example: A few years ago it was absolute doctrine that an early Hawken Mtn. rifle had a flat to the wrist trigger quard with a flint lock. Thousands of contemporary Hawkens were made this way. Books at the time said so. In fact no documented "early" flint Hawken exists and the flat to the wrist style was a thing of the 1840's. As far as is known at the moment.

Dave B · « **Reply #4 on:** July 08, 2008, 07:38:50 AM »

Back when I had more time on my hands and was doing once a year public demonstrations at the local WoodCraft store on carving long rifles. I got one fellow who came up and started talking about the fact that he was a builder of ML rifles and got out of it years ago. Now I am a avid student of the longrifle and when you find an old builder its wise to listen to what they have to say. I knew some thing was up when he asked where I had bought my kits and when I told him that I buy only the parts from track of the Wolf, he said he never heard of them. He proceded to tell me that the only people he delt with were the folks at CVA. Ooh says I..... They have put some nice pieces out on the market over the years. I just let that one go on his way.

Some people are never going to get it. I know that for my self I hold a standard of trying to do the next piece better than the last. So if you made a mistake on a rifle after the fact don't go back to remake it, move on and learn from the error.

I was so proud of that first rifle I built my self from scratch. I was even asked to build a couple of rifles for others. I still have that massive stocked rifle. I thouight I was building a Hawken rifle and only a few years later realized it wasn't even close.
I have been tempted to go back and redo the whole thing. But I moved on to try to build better. Some folks are just as happy with the CVA mt rifle for their shooting at Rondy. They built it from a kit and are pleased as punch with it and thats OK.
But its more fun to learn more and dig deeper into the past and some of those CVA owners are budding students they just havent had some one to chew the fat with about the more advanced projects just waiting to be built.

rich pierce · « **Reply #5 on:** July 08, 2008, 06:26:15 PM »

The thing I have to watch out for is that I can now tend to judge guns, every one I see, and not just enjoy the best work on them. It takes a lot of skill to just put together a "shooter". Then it take a bit more to make one that really handles well, where the sights are lined up when you shoulder the gun. Fine inletting, fit and finish are almost universal now and we take it for granted- but it should be appreciated as fine workmanship. Next step is the "art" part.

Blackpowder Barbie · « **Reply #6 on:** July 08, 2008, 08:10:50 PM »

Yep, it's hard not to be too judgmental sometimes. I find more of my pet peeves in these public demonstrations don't come from the guns, but from the outfits. A little research into proper dress codes for a time period sure does make a difference. We had a new historic museum open up here in a nearby town this weekend and they had photos in the paper and on the local news of a manikin dressed in a nice mid-1700's hunter's frock and tricorn hat. But it had some strange hand woven sash around it's waist and along with it's horn and bag, had a civil war canteen. I know I'm going to get in trouble here, but why can't us Southerners distinguish between the two wars!?! I know and understand that the South will rise again

, but the Rev. War is a completely different event!! Ugg!
Oh, and while I'm on the soap box - LADIES, your stays/corsets go under your outer layers of clothes not on top! And any lady of the mid to late 18th century who didn't cover her head with some form of a bonnet or hat, was advertising for a very intimate job if you take my hint. Oh and heaven forbid you error on both of the above mentioned no-nos at the same time!!

Ezra · « **Reply #7 on:** July 08, 2008, 08:21:18 PM »

I have to agree with Barbie. You should see some of the clothes and longarms at some of the rendezvous! One of the classics was the buckskin microminiskirts three girls were wearing at this years Pacific primitive. Now, I would have been more forgiving if they warrented wearing microminiskirts...but Noooooo, not these three. They were appropriately calibrated and put on something period.
Also, when I shoot my period smoothie or rifle, I rarely go up against same. It is usually a Lyman, CVA, et al. Something quasi modern in style. Now I'm not being elitist at all, it just seems like there are those who reenact history (historically) and those who reenact conveniently. I recognize economics does play a part in ones ability to acquire "correct" firearms and all though.

Ez

Dr. Tim-Boone · « **Reply #8 on:** July 08, 2008, 09:14:53 PM »

I try my best to make each gun better, to learn from my mistakes and to take advantage of, and live up to, the tremendous giftts of knowledge and knowhow shared on this forum by certainly many of the best gun builders and gun artists in the world. I still have my first Pedersoli...if for no other reason than to remind me to be helpful to those who have even less experience than me..... there ain't many!!

I still get excited when someone posts a new gun they have built....absolutely awestruck by some!! I guess I am too young to get jaded......I hope!!

northmn · « **Reply #9 on:** July 09, 2008, 03:48:50 PM »

Barbie's comments about the dress of the period hit home for me. I imagine some things have changed, but an individual coming up a critisizing a less than complete out fit or an appropriate one kind of got to me when that individual was dressed in a shabbly pair of buckskins. It was said a Rendevous that one of the first things traded for was cloth clothing. The Natives traded heavily for cloth. I had a period dress button up front pants, a calico shirt, a hat and shoes that more or less resembled what was worn. Boots and shoes were another thing they traded for. Buckskins may have been worn more to protect the cloth underneath, but really are miserable to wear next to your skin as they freeze you in chilly weather and cook you on the hot days. Also the carry of inappropriate weapons for the era of the Rondevous. A Fusil de Chase would have been an antique at a Western gathering. I really wasn't into dress but studied enough to get by, most studied Walt Disney.

DP

J.D. · « **Reply #10 on:** July 09, 2008, 08:01:31 PM »

Quote from: Ezra on July 08, 2008, 08:21:18 PM

I have to agree with Barbie. You should see some of the clothes and longarms at some of the rendezvous! One of the classics was the buckskin microminiskirts three girls were wearing at this years Pacific primitive. Now, I would have been more forgiving if they warrented wearing microminiskirts...but Noooooo, not these three. They were appropriately calibrated and put on something period.

There was a buxom young lady of about 18 years old that was wearing a buckskin halter style bikini top and a brief breechcloth while attending the Ft. DeChartre Summer rendezvous several years ago. This young lady received lots of attention and I don't think anyone complained about her not being in proper attire.

While there seem to be more people interested in getting it right in eastern Mo than in the past, some folks still don't want to even try. They appear to be in a state of ignorant bliss while wearing painters pants and leather hats and bragging about how good their CVAs, Hatfield rifles and off shore clones are.

Some few of those folks can be educated. Some can't, and sometimes I feel like I'm casting pearls before swine as those folks criticize those of us who have done the research as thread counters and authentinazis, simply for having historically correct clothing, camp and accouterments.

I am attending fewer rendezvous these days, and saving time and fuel for attending better events.

Randy Hedden · « **Reply #11 on:** July 09, 2008, 08:37:42 PM »

Hey Guys,

For the most part modern day rendezvous has nothing to do with authenticity or being period correct. So you shouldn't expect it. There are, of course, some examples of individuals at rendezvous who strive to be period correct. It isn't until you get into French & Indian War and the American War for Independence that you see any real efforts, as a whole, to be historically correct. It seems like for F&I and AWI it is almost expected that you will strive for authenticity while the modern mountain man rondezvous does not expect authenticity or, in most cases, push for it.

If you look to the past, an awful lot of the F&I and AWI reenactors who are now into authenticity came directly from the rendezvous scene. Once they became involved in F&I and AWI they found that reenactments of these two time periods are somewhat driven by authenticity and period correctness while rendezvous are generally not.

Randy Hedden

www.harddogrifles.com

northmn · « **Reply #12 on:** July 09, 2008, 08:48:28 PM »

It isn't that some of the rendevous people strive to be correct, I really only did enough to get by to keep others happy as it was that many used to claim they were. I have seen paraphanalia at camps that are neither correct for the times not modern. They were something someone dreamed up as what could have been. Authentic must stand up to the test of whether it would be carried on a pack horse not a 3/4 ton pickup or suburban. A cooking cabinet I saw was at least 4 feet high by three feet deep holding all manner of cast iron and other dishes. These folks were rather snobbish on their authentic camps.

DP

J.D. · « **Reply #13 on:** July 10, 2008, 02:18:41 AM »

Quote from: northmn on July 09, 2008, 08:48:28 PM

It isn't that some of the rendevous people strive to be correct, I really only did enough to get by to keep others happy as it was that many used to claim they were. I have seen paraphanalia at camps that are neither correct for the times not modern. They were something someone dreamed up as what could have been. Authentic must stand up to the test of whether it would be carried on a pack horse not a 3/4 ton pickup or suburban. A cooking cabinet I saw was at least 4 feet high by three feet deep holding all manner of cast iron and other dishes. These folks were rather snobbish on their authentic camps.

One of the biggest problems I have with the rendezvous crowd is they claim to be historically correct in their clothing and gear when nothing they have has ever existed in any time period. And as northmn says is their creativity in making things that could have existed in an earlier time reeks of the "if theyed a had it, theyed a used it" mentality.

Sometimes I wonder if the rendezvous crowd displays their wealth of cast ironware as a percieved status symbol?

I used to run a rendezvous that drew a wide assortment of people with a wide range of knowledge and skills. A club member wearing buckskin pants patterned off of button fly jeans and a shirt made of some weird type of supposed calico walked by a participant who was starting his campfire with a bow drill. Butch uttered a "harump, I start my fires with flint and steel," as if there was something inherently wrong with using a bow drill. I had to laugh at the club member's attitude. He didn't seem to realize that mike could walk into the woods practically half naked and live somewhat comfortably for an extended period of time.
Butch was lost without his cooler and cast iron.

James Rogers · « **Reply #14 on:** July 10, 2008, 12:07:56 PM »

Pack in school children by the bus loads to show them how it really was back then with the primitive cigarette cases and beer can holders.

On the other hand though, many of the "thread counters" are also proclaiming the greatness of the "offshore clones" Many of them will invest as much for a correct shirt as they will in their firearm.

Acer Saccharum · « **Reply #15 on:** July 10, 2008, 05:59:27 PM »

Each gun I ever built was the best gun I ever built. I put everything I had into it, and when done, it was the apple of my eye. I am sure my first longrifle was just as nice as this guy's rifle, and if I knew enough to put leave lock panels on the gun, they would have been plenty big.

When someone asks 'how can I do this better?', you know they are ready to listen. Otherwise, keep your mouth shut, and your judgement to your self.

Criticism is hard to accept; so many people, self included, can be touchy about comments on their work. When I post something, I either want to know how to do it better, or to show off. But putting your work out there means that you run the risk of hearing something you don't like to hear. If you don't take that risk, you don't grow. Criticism is a vital part of growth, I have come to realize over the years. Sometimes it is painful to hear, after putting in so many hours of painstaking work, that your fore end is too square, or too much wood is on the whole gun, etc. If I can hear this criticism, I can use it to avoid making the same mistake over and over.

Acer Saccharum · « **Reply #16 on:** July 10, 2008, 06:23:07 PM »

Barbie, considering your new status, I assume you will be wearing a bonnet this Dixon's?

I wish to the gods that Dancey would show up in his wig. We will have to wait until '09 for that, I am told.

T*O*F · « **Reply #17 on:** July 10, 2008, 08:33:54 PM »

Quote

Criticism is hard to accept;

Wisdom comes with age but age can come without wisdom

Quote

so many people, self included, can be touchy about comments on their work

If you think education is expensive, consider the cost of ignorance.
The ignorant man often considers himself to be both wise and learned.
In accepting criticism, one must necessarily consider the source.

Acer Saccharum · « **Reply #18 on:** July 10, 2008, 08:42:26 PM »

Dave, one of the best experiences I ever had was to take an engraving intensive with Jerry Huddleston. Up until this point, I thought I was done with school. Now I'd go back in a heartbeat to learn specific skills. You can't put a price on this kind of education.

Tanstaafl · « **Reply #19 on:** July 11, 2008, 12:01:46 AM »

Speaking of clothing, a fond memory I have is the "non-clothing" NAPR rondy at Kalispell MT back in the late 1970's. Having over indulged in too much whistle the night before, I decided a good sweat should put things right. I went over and found the sweat lodge, dug some hot rocks out of the fire pit, got some water and closed the flap, couple of other guys wandered in and we were sitting around in the nude swatting ourselves with green sage brush.

In about a half an hour, I was sweat drenched and parboiled, went barreling out of the lodge for a dip in the creek, but was brought up short in mid stride by the sight I beheld. Just a few feet away was a beautiful and perfectly formed young lady totally nude astride a horse bareback. I stood there with jaw dropped looking stupid, not believing what I was seeing and thinking I was hallucinating. What I didn't realize was that they had three separate sweat lodges, male, female, and co-ed, and I had picked the latter one. Needless to say, I chose that latter one for duration of the rondy.

if anyone else attended that rondy, I am sure they will also remember the free for all fight the camp had over of all things, a rock.

J.D. · « **Reply #20 on:** July 11, 2008, 12:20:19 AM »

Quote from: Tanstaafl on July 11, 2008, 12:01:46 AM

if anyone else attended that rondy, I am sure they will also remember the free for all fight the camp had over of all things, a rock.

That must have been some rock

b bogart · « **Reply #21 on:** July 11, 2008, 12:56:33 AM »

I was not going to offer any advice to this Gentleman. I'm not qualified to do that. When I can build a better one than he had I can at least comment on it! I was more concerned that I was being snobby, but I geuss you all have just taught me what to look for in a rifle.
He was proud of it, it was one fantastic piece of wood, and I'm sure it provided him with much fun and pride.
When I get mine closer to done I'll post a few pix and I expect critiquing without reservation. I have very thick skin! I need alot of guidance. Besides I know that I am not very good yet. May never be, but like the previously mentioned Gentleman, I'll have a heck of a good time!
Bruce

B Shipman · « **Reply #22 on:** July 12, 2008, 07:25:58 AM »

Just remember that a lot of guys that post on here have been at this for decades. It is just as much fun to see early efforts. I'm amazed how well done most of them are. And the reason is that there is more information and criticism out there. There's nothing better than looking at rifles, so post away whether it's your first or 300th.

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Author Topic: Jaded? (Read 13090 times)

northmn

J.D.

northmn

J.D.

northmn

J.D.

Tanstaafl

J.D.