Another Andrew Kline Rifle - Now with pictures

[Kline]

Happy New Year to all. I have not posted much lately, but was contacted by a gentleman who on seeing my research here, send me some pictures of a rifle which has the same initials and workmanship as the as the ones I posted earlier. If he gives me his permission, I will post the pictures he sent to me. There is also another A+K initialed rifle floating around and I will ask permission to post pictures of it as well.

 I also came across a bit of information I had in my notes on Andrew Kline I failed to include in my biography here. Andrew Kline was confirmed at the Christ Lutheran Church in York Boro in 1798 at the age of 16. This is maybe 8 miles from where Andrew was baptized at Quickles' Church, near Strinestown. Andrew was born, July 30, 1781, so the age of 16 would be correct.

 I know there were several gunsmiths who worked in the York Boro area, one being Fredrick Zorger. I also recall reading a group of gunsmiths worked in that area making contract muskets. Can someone confirm this?  I will research the gunsmith who worked in the York Boro area, but if anyone has that information,would you please share? I would assume Andrew Kline would have been apprenticing at age 16, in 1798.  

[mr. no gold]

You might check Whisker's book on York makers. I seem to recall that he mentioned a number of contract makers. Henry Pickle was one such and there were others. Hope that you can get permission to put photos if the newly found pieces here. We would be delighted to see them. Quality is always fun.
Dick

[Kline]

Thanks Dick, Just ordered Whiskers' book the other day. I think there is some info in Kaufman's book, which I have, will check as time permits.
                                                                                                     Tom

[Kline]

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[Kline]

I am hoping these pictures will generate some more discussion on the Kline, Klinedinst topic. I believe this rifle and the others I posted earlier on this forum are no doubt the work of Andrew Kline and not Andrew Klinedinst.  This rifle brings a total of at least 8 guns I believe were made by Andrew Kline, 2 with full signatures. At this point there are only 2 guns I am aware of that I would attribute to Andrew Klinedinst, to whom was credited most all of Andrew Kline's at one time.

Let's hear it. What do you guys think?

[Kline]

signatures of 5 A. K. rifles. I will scan and post pictures of the guns they belong to, starting with the first signature as time allows. Enjoy and please comment.










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[Kline]

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[Kline]

[Kline]

[Kline]

[Kline]

[Buck]

Kline,
The 3rd one from the bottom I believe is pictured in "Behold the Longrifle Again" and is listed as Kliendinst. In regards to that rifle, the carving is not uniform with the other pieces. This style of carving appears to be the hand of Fredrick Sell. Do you have any documentation that links the 2 smiths? It is known that Sell traveled as a Journeyman, it appears that he worked for several different employers over the course of his career. The bottom rifle was in my collection for a while, we had all thought it to be a Kliendinst. Great info and thank you.
Buck  

[Kline]

Buck, The rifle you mention has been an enigma to me as well for some time, however a smooth rifle signed with the same A+K initials and the same profile side plate and Sell style carving has been brought to my attention. I will seek permission to post those pictures.

Andrew Kline and Fredrick Sell were both born in 1781. As I wrote in the first post in this thread, I ran across some notes showing Andrew Kline in church records of the Christ Lutheran Church in York Boro. !798 age 16. ( side notes: George Eister is buried in this same church cemetery. Fredrick Zorger is buried in the Quickel's church cemetery, Where Andrew Kline's birth and baptism is recorded.) Fredick Sell Is on the 1807 York Boro. tax records. So perhaps Andrew and Fredick had contact when in York.

Here is something else to ponder. Check out page 53 in Whisker's Gunsmiths of York County. Note the patch box and Hunters star on this signed Adam Ernst rifle. It is obviously Andrew Kline's work. Also note how the A in the signature matchs the A in Andrew Kline's signature. Adam Ernst is also born in 1781. Kindig pp. 356-58, thought Ernst apprenticed with George Eister, , Phillip Heckert, or Fredrick Sell (Kline, Sell, Ernst connection?) Prof. Kauffman p. 2211 thought Ernst apprenticed with Eister.

There is also a Michael Edwards rifle that appears to me to have Andrew Kline's hand in it. Michael Edwards also worked in York.

                                                                                                 Tom Kline   

[Kline]

Just another interesting side note, I can not make any links to the Sells and Klines through this, but it is interesting. Littlestown, which the Sells are associated with was founded by a Peter Klein. Klein translated from German, means little.

[Buck]

Kline,
Here is a theory (I am not the 1st to think this) these men were associated in life (neighbors, child hood friends etc.) when one was at capacity or overload and the others were slow I would imangine they would employ the help of each other to meet the demand. I remember when these types of agreements were in capacity in the building trades as I was the subject of them many times throughout my apprenticeship 28 years ago.
Buck   

[Kline]

Buck, I think that is a good theory. I also wonder if as Journeymen they may have worked side by side in a Master Smith's shop. To my eye, I do see similarities in Kline and Klinedinst work, however I feel Kline's workmanship surpasses Klinedinst.

 As I have noted before, Kline and Klinedinst Both lived in York and were listed as gunsmiths on census records. Klinedinst moves from Hanover to York in 1825. Kline moves back to York, after working in Dover and then Adams County,I would estimate around the mid 1840s. It would be very easy for Kline and Klinedist to be in contact at that time, but I have no indication they were associated in anyway up to that point, at least not yet. There is perhaps at 10 year period, 1844 to 1854, when Kline and Klinedinst would be in the same area. However this seems to late for any of the guns that are known to be made by them. Not so? Klinedinst dies in 1854 and Kline is still living in 1860, in York, listed as a gunsmith on the 1860 census.

Whisker's biography in Gunsmiths of York County, is , I believe incorrect as it states Klinedinst is listed in the 1860 census. my research indicates Klinedinst died in 1854. Andrew Kline is on the 1860 census in York listed as a gunsmith and perhaps because of the long held idea that Kline and Klinedinst were the same man, this lead to that mistake.       

[12a10]

From 12A10----

Hello everybody.   This is my first post on this forum.  The latest photos shown in this thread are of a rifle I haveowned since 1973--I had long believed it to be an Andrew Klinedinst based on the ident by the previous owner and pictures of a similar rifle in Kindigs book.  Based on recent correspondence with Tom Kline, I am convinced that he is correct in his identification of this gun as the work of his ancestor, Andrew Kline.

I have a few questions for the forum:   1. The rifle has a deeply stamped "prook mark" near thebreech.
itis "GR" in a small oval. Now this is stamped way too deep to be a post manufacture proof--my senseis that it was applied as the barrel was being hot forged.  Has anyone seen such a mark?

2.  I purchased the rifle from a man named Ernie Halliger who lived just beyond Cumberland MD. At thetime he was dying of cancer and probably died circa 1973.  He had a collection of hundreds of long rifles thathecalled "home rifles".   Does anyone have any knowledge of this man?

Many thanks,  GM   Crownsville, Maryland

[Buck]

Kline,
He certainly was consistent with his metal work, but I still believe the carving on the one rifle to be that of Sells. I am interested to hear your theory on that particular rifle.
Buck

[Kline]

Hi George and Buck. Sorry I have been off the grid the last couple of weeks, a lot of stuff piled up all at once.

George, I removed the barrel of my Kline rifle, the other week and found a stamped P near the breech. I think there was another letter, but it was obliterated by a slight drill mark made for the front lock screw. My guess is that it is the barrel makers markings. I do not know if there is any sort of cataloging of barrel makers and their touch marks. I will send you a picture.

Buck, as you say Andrew's metal work and engraving, etc is very consistent. As I pour over the photos of his work I see consistencies in his C scrolls as well. All of the samples I am aware of are incised except the one you mention, but all have a similar design. I have a few photos of another A+K signed smooth rifle that has relief carving and have gotten permission to post pictures of it. I will do so soon. I am beginning to think this carving could well have been done by Andrew Kline, only in relief. It has the style of Sell, but I don't necessarily think he had to have carved it.

I am also beginning to believe the theory you mentioned about these gunsmith working together or even side by side, has merit. There is a signed A. Ernst rifle that without a doubt has an Andrew Kline Patch box on it and a Michael Edwards rifle that I would suggest the same of, only lacking his signature "edleweis" flower. Kline, Ernst, Edwards, Eister, Zorger, and I think Sell were in York Boro. in the late 1700s early 1800s along with many other gunsmiths.

I have a few other interesting observations I will try to relate latter.

I am going to try to make it to the 18th cent. art. show in Lewisburg, this weekend, I have somethings that may not allow me to make it though. Are either of you going to attend?

                                                                                                                       Tom  

[Buck]

Kline,
Unfortunately I am not in the area. Thanks for the info and look forward to more. I have been in this debate for several years, the Kline that is pictured with the floral back drop was in my collection for a while. The Gentleman that I purchased it from had presented it as a Kleindinst and was engaged in the same debate that has been ongoing here. I am sure that he has been following the thread. Anyway be well and look forward to more info.
Buck