Hawken Patchbox Spring?

[nvandal]

Folks,
I'm going nuts ( short trip!) trying to figure out the spring mechanism for a Track of The Wolf Hawken patchbox. It's the cast pineapple box. Can someone please help? I just cant see it. Any photos or sketches?
Thanks kindly,
Norm Vandal
Roxbury, VT

[Don Stith]

I have not seen the TOW casting, but if it copies the hand forged ones Art Ressel had made, it is a simple spring.  The spring is inlet in the bottom of the box cavity and held in place with one screw The lever on the box lid just  cams over  a "hill" on the spring. Can not find the sketch I made of the original Art copied his from. It was not a flimsy little sheet metal spring though. One of them even had a roller on the spring similar to the roller on some frizzen springs.  Principle is same as a frizzen spring and the lever on a frizzen

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Here's a couple of pics of the box to which you refer.  I installed this box into a GPR belonging to my buddy Brian Dancy, and I used a push button release from the for'd end of the butt plate return, rather than the device provided with the kit.  The typical release would be the Tennessee type, but the one that came with the set was so Mickey-Mouse I couldn't handle it.  Louis Parker did a really nice one on one of his Hawken rifles that used the proper release system.  I've a picture of that one too, somewhere.

[Herb]

Here's Track's patch box on a .58 fullstock flint Hawken I made.

[Dphariss]

Patchbox springs need not store a lot of energy. Just enough to pop the lid up off the catch.
So the spring can be fairly stiff so long as he preload is not heavy. Or it can be light with more preload.
Excessive pressure/preload is hard on all the parts and can damage brass box lids. Steel is a little tougher but it can still cause problems.
Dan

[nvandal]

Folks,
Thanks for the photos, but I'm still confused. All of the original capboxes that are on my underhammer rifles have springs that keep the lid sprung closed, not to pop it open. There are no catches, nor the need for one. There are small thumbnail relief slots on the surround frames so one can grab the lid edge to open the lid. Of course the spring is housed under the capbox finial adjacent to the hinge, and this can't be done on the Track box.
Isn't this the way this ( and all ) cap boxes are supposed to work? I can't recall seeing any with a catch. I have seen some with tiny knobs so the lid can be grabbed.
Well..what do you think?
Thanks again,
Norm vandal
Roxbury, VT

[smylee grouch]

Sounds like some confusion between patchbox and capbox. Spring under cam on inside of cap box could keep lid closed unless you pry up under the finger nail cut out.

[JDK]

Norm,  It's obvious you're new here and welcome aboard.  You're lucky in that the first guy who answered your question here is considered by many to be one of the foremost experts on Hawken rifles.  The others who've chimed in posses much knowledge and have helped pave the road you're on now.  They know what they are talking about.

From what I've observed...and that's not a lot....the Hawken brothers use various ways of latching their patchboxes as has been pointed out here.  Here's an article you might find interesting.  It has been linked in a post here before.  It has decent pictures of one Hawken patchbox inside and out and goes on to explain it is opened by a button through the toe plate.  This seems like a simple and viable option.

http://asoac.org/bulletins/87_burke_hawken.pdf

Enjoy,  J.D.

[nvandal]

Hello again,
JD: I wasn't questioning anyone's knowledge in saying that I was still confused. Yes, I am new to the site as a participant in the forum, but I've been using the site for years. The photos helped me, but still didn't answer my basic question. I didn't see it as an insult to say I was still confused. You seem to suggest this in your comment. I've handled many fine longrifles and caprifles. I've had a fantastic Peter Berry apart on my bench for photos and measurements. In fact, I have an S.Hawken/ St.Louis rifle in my posession right now, a sporting rifle with walnut stock, in superb condition ( no capbox ). I have all the Hawken associated books, including Jim Gordon's boxed set. Now, I have the article that you posted to help me out. Thanks. The scholarship in the article is commendable. Good photos too. All help is appreciated. I didn't need the mini lecture.
Don's response helped me the most because he appears to know how the Track box is constructed. It has what might call a lever or a leg that is cast into the lid. It's on the inside and at a right angle to the lid surface. The lever is under the hinge. So, my guess is that it functions as a cam. Incidentally, the boxes in the photos posted are not the cast box, or at least not like mine, which has only one screw centered on the top surround, like the rifle on page 389 of Gordon's book. Since it must function as a cam, then it must keep the lid shut, and perhaps keep it steady when open.
Don: I'm assuming the box you described had this lever. The hill on the spring would push the lever toward the hinged edge of the box, keeping the lid closed? When lifted open, the lever would climb the hill a bit and when on the other incline the lid would be held open? Is this basically what you recall? I'm feeling like I'm on the right track, but could use more affirmation. This would make devising a catch unnecessary. Please let me know if I'm on the right track ( no pun!).
Once again, thanks much to ALL of you for your help. It's really incredible that folks would extend themselves to help one another.
Sincerely,
Norm Vandal
Roxbury, VT

[Don Stith]

You have a PM

[Hungry Horse]

Taylor;

  Could you tell me if the box you used in the picture, would cover up the inlet on a Thompson Center Hawken stock?

                 Hungry Horse

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Nvandal...I can see how you might be confused, because you are right;  we are talking about two different boxes.  The one I illustrated is a sheet metal box I purchased from TOW - not a casting.

HH:  I think the box is big enough to cover T/C's brass one.

[nvandal]

Taylor,
Is the quality of the sheet metal box good? Is the lid thick enough to resist torquing or bending? I was tempted to get one, but got the cast box instead.
The cast box has some irregularities and needs a fair amount of work to get it right. I even had to send one back out of the three I purchased because it had a visible crack and was very thin where the sprue had been attached. All in all, I now have a decent one to work up.
I like the idea of not needing a catch, but I know the spring is going to need some fussing with. Don sent me a PM and was able to confirm my assumptions.
Thank you kindly,
Norm Vandal

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

The one I used was 1/16" thick mild steel...lots of material.

On the oval box, there is no where to install the spring to hold the lid closed, below the hinge.  The cam must be below the hinge and I'm not sure how a spring could also be added there, but there is likely a way.  I'd need to do some sypherin'!

[JDK]

I didn't need the mini lecture.

No offense meant.  Since you've been here a while you know we have quite a few valuable members who no longer contribute as their expertise was constantly called into question.  My pointing out who the folks contributing to your post were was only done to let you know who you're dealing with and that their advice could be trusted.

Enjoy, J.D.