Engraved by the hand of?

[Shreckmeister]

I hear alot of discussion on this forum and at shows involving attribution of unsigned rifles and
their engraving.  Often I hear that the engraving is not "of the same hand"  I present the pictures below of
the patchboxes of 3 signed Shreckengost rifles which really bear no resemblance to each other, but were
all done by the same hand.  Interested in discussion of this as it relates to other makers and attibution.
I might add also that I have seen the patchboxes of two of his signed rifles where the engraving is even
more elaborate and contains deeper shading almost to a 3 dimensional appearance.

[Majorjoel]

I have always felt that if a patchbox "makes the rifle" then the engraving "makes the patchbox", then it is the engraving that truly makes the rifle! This may sound kind of silly, but when it comes to the artistic side of the longrifle, good outstanding engraving adds a lot to the desireability and value of such. I can never discount architecture and good carving, but on the later percussion era styles we have to deal with what was made at the time.  In comparing your 2 Shreckengost patchboxes my opinion is the first rifle pictured may be just a tad later than the second. It also was the more expensive rifle when made. A gunsmiths true abilities don't come to light until a higher price is paid. It is very hard to match the hand of a gifted engraver to his lower end work.  Just my opinion and it is always fun to see your stuff here Rob!

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

He obviously hired more than one engraver!!  

[bgf]

How do you know they were all engraved by the same hand?

[jdm]

It is said the Jacob Kuntz did some engraving for John Rupp. John Young of Easton is supposed to have done engraving for others. Judging by engraving alone is a tricky matter. There are other aspects to take into consideration also when making an attribution.

[Dphariss]

The later ones may have been purchased already engraved.

Dan

[Fullstock longrifle]

Several years ago a member of the KRA was doing research on gunsmiths using local whitesmiths to do their engraving work. I never heard any more about it, but it seems to be reasonable, it's done today, so why not then?
Frank

[Shreckmeister]

Use of local whitesmiths seems plausable.  In the case of Shreckengost, having seen rifles from several
decades of production with very similar engraving, barrels with engraving to match patchboxes and
other items engraved by him, I 'm confident he wasn't using a whitesmith himself.  Also, I don't imagine
a whitesmith would have been in Putneyville, PA.

[Avlrc]

  Also, I don't imagine
a whitesmith would have been in Putneyville, PA.

Just curious, why not?

[Shreckmeister]

Putneyville. Population 150. Middle of nowhere.

[Paul E. Wog]

Two blacksmiths in Putneyville circa. 1870;
One blacksmith in Eddyville;
One blacksmith at McCrea-Galbraith Furnace ( aka Olney Furnace) circa 1857;
One blacksmith at Colwell Furnace circa 1845;
All within a few miles of each other...why not a whitesmith (tinsmith) , jeweler, etc.
      Shreck ( not Meister )

[Buck]

I understand Robs point. Putneyville (I assume) was a rural farming community, so the demand for a jeweler or whitesmith would not have been in high demand. Unless of course he moonlighted as a Whitesmith and took up farming as his base income. I would tend to think a Whitesmith would want to base himself in an area where commerce was abundant, jewelry of course was and is a luxury not a necessity. I would also think that a farmer at that time produced crops and cattle more for self sustenance and a fraction of this went to commerce. So I would doubt there was extra money for jewelry.Only an opinion.
Buck  

[Shreckmeister]

Buck   Thank you for stating my case.  That was exactly my point.  I think a Whitesmith would have starved
to death in a small logging town.

[mkeen]

Buck   Thank you for stating my case.  That was exactly my point.  I think a Whitesmith would have starved
to death in a small logging town.

A whitesmith would have starved to death? 150 people would have been more than enough to support a whitesmith or tinsmith during this period. I don't think a whitesmith should be equated with a jeweler. A whitesmith would have made everyday objects like lanterns, candle molds, tin boxes, oil lamps, candle sticks, wall sconces, coffee pots, cups, tea caddies, trays, cookie cutters, etc. Most tinware though is not engraved. There are some outstanding examples. I would want to check the occupations of all the locals before discounting the presence of a whitesmith.

[Shreckmeister]

I thought searching all 37 pages of the 1860 Mahoning Township Census would end up being a waste of time but actually it was very revealing.  It gives you a real feel for the community.  1 Physician, several Innkeepers,
blacksmiths, 1 Stone Mason, 1 Graduate?, 1 Iron Master? several sawyers, timberman, miners, ore diggers,
a slew of farmers, 1 gunsmith (Shreck), a large number of shoemakers, colliers, wagon makers, laborers
teamsters, founders, millers, 1 surveyor, 1 engineer, merchants, plasterer, 3 boat builders, bar keeper.  No whitesmiths or tinsmiths.  Given I've seen about 50 engraved rifles, I don't think he was traveling to get
his engraving done.

[flintriflesmith]

To me that third rifle looks --- in that one picture --- like a different hand in stock shaping, and engraving. The box look related to some late Maryland work. Maybe he had a journeyman on hand for a short time or maybe the barrel was recycled by a different maker who stocked and engraved it in his style. Are the other details on the rifle more characteristic of his other work?

[Buck]

Rob,
Maybe Shrek was the whitesmith in Putneyville. My understanding of a whitesmith is apparently different from mkeens.
Buck

[Shreckmeister]

To me that third rifle looks --- in that one picture --- like a different hand in stock shaping, and engraving. The box look related to some late Maryland work. Maybe he had a journeyman on hand for a short time or maybe the barrel was recycled by a different maker who stocked and engraved it in his style. Are the other details on the rifle more characteristic of his other work?

The barrel is signed by Shreck and bears his earlier engraving style.  Upon removal of the barrel, I found
no evidence that lugs had been changed or moved.  The lock appears to be original to the rifle and is circa 1840s which would have been early
in his career, so I concluded that it was his early work.  His family had come from Dauphin County and
the style he developed later was unique to him with a very thin buttstock and extreme drop.

[mr. no gold]

To the role of 'whitesmith' we perhaps should add that many were 'tinkerers' as well. They mended any item that required it and with some ingenuity.
Dick

[Acer Saccharum]

I am not sure if I could determine if one hand cut all three patch boxes, just looking at the photographs. One method I use is to take macro photographs, and see how cuts were terminated, how turns were made, length of travel at each hammer blow. Other attributes can be 1) how does the engrave handle curves? and 2) does the engraver have good line width control?
This is kind of an 'engraver's fingerprint', if you will.

One cannot compare styles, because fashion changes as time goes by, and designs are often driven by customer demand. So all three boxes could have been engraved by the same guy, but to determine that, you'd have to look really close.

[Hungry Horse]

 Something to consider is that the tools used to engrave long rifles were small, and few. Any trade in those days that could be made portable probably was, to some degree. It is not inconceivable that someone that maybe didn't excel at some of the other facets of the gunsmiths trade, but was a fair engraver might travel around and engrave guns for other smiths. Just a thought.

                  Hungry Horse

[Paul E. Wog]

There still exists a complete chest of gunsmithing and forging tools owned by Wm. Shreckengost that is in private hands.
There are engraving and checkering tools,turnscrews, wrenchs, taps, dies, etc. within that collection.
Also, the set contains the zinc and paper templates of known patchbox designs and inlays...some with engraving designs penciled in.
The Shreckengost Family Bible also is written in Wm's. hand, recording dates of childrens births and some cases deaths...the lettering is the same as his engraving.
My guess....he did his own engraving work, any anomalies may certainly be attributed to restocking of existant parts, apprentices, bad day in the shop, etc...ad nauseum
     Just my 2d's worth,
     I remain..................Shreck ( not Meister )