Wooden Patchbox Gun

[Stophel]

Well, let's see....

This one in the NRA museum is one of the most beautiful guns I have ever seen.  (Pay no attention to their dating or maker attribution... Actually, you can pay no attention to their dating and attributions for a great many of the guns in their collection...   )

http://www.nramuseum.org/the-museum/the-galleries/the-road-to-american-liberty/case-21-the-flintlock/swedish-flintlock-fusil.aspx

It's by Lars Bleckberg (the "L" being pretty clear on the lockplate...)  I don't have my Svenska Gevaersmeder book in front of me, so don't know the exact dates, but think something more like 1740's at least.  

Here's a cool one:
http://kurage.wordpress.com/2012/08/15/sven-hallgren-och-lars-hallberg-tva-ostgotska-bossor/

Some neat, though not quite comparable, guns here:
http://emuseumplus.lsh.se/eMuseumPlus?service=ExternalInterface&module=artist&objectId=21613&viewType=detailView

http://widforss.chiaro.mrfriday.com/auktioner/bilder/13/V04M_056.jpg

http://kurage.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/img_2609.jpg

I really love the Swedish snaplock rifles...
http://kurage.wordpress.com/category/vapen/

Actually pretty hard to come across much on the internet.

[Fullstock longrifle]

I can definitely see some similarities Stophel, thanks for the lead. I know of four of this type of gun that's turned up in America in the last several years, I wonder if they were brought here for a specific reason, or just brought here by immigrants?
Frank

[Fullstock longrifle]

I looked at the pictures, but although there are some similarities, the architecture is different and so is the hardware. What do the rest of you think?
Frank

[jdm]

Swedish immigrant? Did the four you know of come out of the same area?

[Fullstock longrifle]

One is the gun in Shumway's book on Colonial Guns, Volume 1, known as the KIP gun, not sure about where that one turned up. But one was found in Pennsylvania, one came from Michigan and this one came from Virginia.
Frank

[Majorjoel]

Seems to me that four guns found in existence having very similar attributes, and early to boot, should constitute a new school. Now that's what Martin Mylins work looked like!     Sorry Frank, I just couldn't help myself. There has been some interesting conjecture's put fourth so far. I still keep thinking your fowler has Huguenot beginnings,  perhaps made here in the colonies. A test of the stock wood would probably get you about as much solid info as you'll be able to find. I just love a good mystery!

[debnal]

Frank,
Of those four guns, one is curly maple, one is cherry, one is birch and one is ash. To me that argues for American stocking.
Al

[Fullstock longrifle]

In the next few days I'll see if I can get a piece of wood from the gun and send it off for analysis, I guess that will tell the tale. Thanks for all your comments.
Frank

[RifleResearcher]

For what one more opinion is worth, I have to totally agree with Stophel's thoughts on this gun.  I have seen 6 or 7 of these in the last twenty years, three of them were signed on the locks by Swedish makers, one, not signed, had the funky Swedish snap lock.   They typically had fowler-ish looking stocks, rounded cheek rests and wooden boxes, though one thing I have noticed is that the inside of the box on nearly all the ones I have seen, rather than being  truly rectangular, the side nearest the buttplate ramps down to the bottom, rather than being straight up and down.  As for wood types, I have seen ones that looked like walnut, maple and beech.   I think they blended a lot of Continental styles and influences in Scandinavia, along with local innovation, just as we did, and ended up with a similar result.  Some of them may well have come over during the 18th century, but I suspect that some may be more recent imports.  I don't know if wood analysis will help or not on this one.  If I remember correctly last time I sent wood to be looked at about 10 years ago, while they could determine if walnut was American or European, at that time they told me maple species in Europe and America looked so much alike under the microscope that they would not hazard to declare it to be one or the other.  Perhaps in the years since they have cleared that up?
Alan 

[Fullstock longrifle]

Thanks Alan, I appreciate your thoughts on the subject. Whatever the gun is, or where it is from, I'm enjoying it, it's a neat piece of history.
Frank

[JTR]

Frank, I can't help you any on the origins, but do think that it's a very cool gun, where ever it came from!

Alan's comment on the box cavity is interesting to me, as I have a Lancaster or maybe Adams County rifle that has a ramp like that.

John

[Stophel]

Though obviously not a flintlock, here's a Swedish rifle with an elm stock.  Could this be the "ash" wood that one of these four guns is stocked in?

http://www.gunauction.com/buy/7417980/guns-for-sale-curios-relics/curios-relics-rifles/swedish-mauser-1915-elm-stock-m-96-6.5-x-55


Of course, I've seen more German and English guns stocked in ash than I have seen (purported) American ones, finer Spanish guns are almost universally stocked in curly maple, and cherry looks an awful lot like "fruitwood"... which is what they call wood that they don't know exactly what it is, but it's probably pear.

[Acer Saccharum]

Looks Dutch to me, especially in the guard and engraving style.

[Fullstock longrifle]

While doing more research on the gun, I came across this information about an early Swedish settlement in America, what happened to them by the 18th century, did they stay here, did they go back? Here's a link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Sweden

Frank

[Mark Tyler]

This independent "Swedish Nation" continued until 1681 when the Englishman, William Penn received his charter for Pennsylvania and the three lower counties, present-day Delaware.

While Swedes and Finns continued to settle in New Jersey, Delaware and Pennsylvania, they did not begin to arrive in the United States in large numbers until the 19th century. Swedish immigration was highest between 1867 and 1914 due to poor local economic conditions in Sweden and the availability of cheap land in the American west. At the peak of immigration in the 1880s, an average of 37,000 Swedes came to the United States each year. Most of the new settlers bypassed New Sweden and headed west to Minnesota, Illinois, Iowa, Kansas, Nebraska, Texas, California and Washington, which remain the states with the largest numbers of Swedish-Americans today/i]


http://www.colonialswedes.org/History/History.html

[Howard]

When our forefathers came over here to the new world they brought their skills with them. They never changed their hand & started making these guns in the full delveloped form as they did before . I'm sure that some of these guns out there that we have been seeing that we believe are European are truly American guns. Being skilled & have worked in several shops, I haven't changed my hand  very little from the way I was taught during my apprenticeship. Frank,I think that your rifle is very interesting  & I like it.

[Stophel]

There is an immense desire to call anything American, just as there used to be, and still is, the immense desire to call anything "pre-Revolutionary".  Because something doesn't "look like" what an English or German or French gun is supposed to look like, why, it MUST be American!  Other European countries had gunsmiths too.  They made LOTS of guns.  And believe it or not, they're not all the big money, highly decorated guns made for nobility.  Many are downright CRUDE.  You have to look beyond the guns in the well-known nice picture books and on display at various museums to see what kinds of guns were really made in different countries.

I'm sure rather, that some of the guns that we believe are American are actually European!