Shotgun Loads for Cylinder, Jug and Normal Choked guns.

[Daryl]

I gather from what DP and FL FLinter are saying, we should be splitting the fibre cushion wad if used. The thinner, lighter wads will slow down more quickly and fall behind the shot cloud. Using nothing but a stack of "B" wads might give similar results if using a paper wrapp for the shot.  Using the two, patterns should be improved.

Another suggestion after reading WW Greener, would be to use some form of  the Swedish cupped wad. This is where the Steel-shot wads come in. The base section, cut off and holding perhaps 1/2 ounce should help fill in centres at longer ranges. Anyone done any testing with this?   

[northmn]

I have been spending some time moving snow and other little projects. I may get time to look into this.  My gun is choked about a IC and might gain from some little tricks.  I opened it up because it shot to blasted tight for my use.  It would have been a great turkey gun with its original full choke.  To load it I had to split the card wads so that they would be thin enough to bend and fit in the choke.  The part of the shot column you are talking about is the part that gets lost when shooting.  The partial shot cup is used on Gualandi wads for modern shotguns as that is where the cushioning does the most good.
Your idea should work.  If you examine a modern shotcup after firing you see the most deformation at the bottom due to "setback".  I used to put a very thin fiber wad in the base of steel wads because steel pellets would embed in the bottom of the wads.  In Bismuth the setback used to disintegrate some of the pellets before they added tin. Many modern shotcups are thicker at the bottom than at the top because of this.  In his research, Tom Roster found that the transitional system worked best for tight patterns.  Use of a shot cup, a fiber cushion wad and a plastic sleeve fitting the length of the shot column.  The cushion wad absorbs setback better than plastic and the sleeve prevents "bore scrubbing"  deformation ageist barrel walls.  What my windy little dissertation is saying is that a partial shotcup would help as it protects the shot the most at its most critical region.  A steel shot cup is made out of very tough plastic and could be improved with a fiber insert.  One problem with these cups is that they do not open well at BP velocities and tend to form a slug.  Were I to try your idea I would likely use some of Flflinters paper wads or work on something similar with fiber cushions.  Another option would be to use a sleeve of whatever type, short start about the length of the column and add buffer.  A little shot a little buffer and so forth.  For a turkey load you might gain something. For regular hunting it might be a PITA. This is also why I suggested to Roundball that Tungsten (Hevi-Shot) shot might work very well.  It is hard and does not deform, neither does steel.  For a non choked gun, if one could get the proper barrel protection these might really help.  With lead you have to use "magnum" shot or better yet plated shot.  As Roundball mentioned, for Turkey you only shoot a couple of shots per year.  The $140 per 7 pounds for Hevi-Shot might not be so painful if spread over a few years.  Another way to test them is to buy a box of shells and open them for the shot.  At about $30 per 10 one could at least afford to test them.

DP

[Daryl]

DP - the 'slug' effect of the steel wads is exactly what the Westly Richards wire-caged shot did at close range.  At a selected range, they opened up or released the shot.  This was back in the mid 1800's - yet they knew the value of shot buffers. The shot encased in the ctg. had bone meal mixed with the pellets, the whole thing covered in thin paper, coloured to denote ranges.  The longest range ctg. was designed for shooting birds at up to or over 90 yards.  They were used for wolves and deer at out to about 50 yards.  I am wondering if the steel shot wad might work in a similar manner, flying with the shot encased (like a bullet at close range), yet deliver good patterns at, say 50 or 60 or 70 yards as the shot separates from the wad - 'out there'.

[R. Hare]

The only trouble with wire cartridges or the modern interpretation of them, is that they shoot much lower than the normal load, so a lot of practice would have to be put in with them, to get "good" with them at long range.

[roundball]

While I always readily admit I'll never be confused with being a purist, for some reason one of the areas that I'm pretty strong on is with the use of a smoothbore barrel like the settlers would have used them...and for me that means no plastic shotwads/shotcups...not talking about anybody else, just where my head happens to be at this point in time.
Reason is I just can't tell you how great the feeling was when I tagged a couple turkey with a flintlock, black english flint, real blackpowder, cushion wad, #6 lead shot, and an OS card...it doesn't get much more basic than that and I wouldn't trade those 2 for 100 turkeys with a Remington 1100.  Like I assume most of you have experienced, its no longer about the "how many", its all about the "how".

So the lack of shotcups limits my shot choices to good old lead or now the fairly recent (very expensive) direct lead substitute called EcoTungsten...by contrast, from what I've read a protective shot cup is required for all the other subs.

[northmn]

There were a lot of tricks associated with extending the range for shot charges.  Some worked. some worked sometimes.  Through the years they kind of came and went.  Some pretty interesting claims were made about chokes once they were developed such as consistant kills out to 70 yards, all this with BP loads and no shpt protection, etc.  It is possible the shot would outrun the steel wad at some range, ,maybe even likely, but how consistently.  Two tricks the old cartridge shooters did was to ring a shotshell at the wad and to wax the load.  Both worked for deer and could be used on swimming ducks at a long range.  It was said the shot would hit the water and break up.  Historically if we look, shotguns have been loaded pretty much the same ie. powder, wads and shot.  If one wanted to duplicate the early uses the wads could be about anything, often loose material like wasps nests thumped tight over powder.  Shot was generally pretty soft.  Today's shotcups are as much a production shortcut as an improvement.  If you buffer the shot column to prevent distortion you will get a more dense pattern.  If you can keep pressures lower you get a more dense pattern which is the secret of modern "turkey loads".   Its the bottom of the column that is subject to set back and those are the pellets that need protection, however done. 

DP

[Jerry V Lape]

 Experience with plastic wads ahead of black powder (loaded in plastic cases for old cartridge type shotguns) is  that a build up of melted plastic gets smeared through the bore and is hard to remove.  The heat from blackpowder seems too much for the plastic and sure makes  the plastic shotshells  a one time use too.   I know that a number of the muzzleloading skeet shooters don't use a cushion wad at all.  They simply load a nitro card ahead of the powder, or in some cases two cards, and then their shot load followed by the over card wad.  Part of your doughnut pattern may be coming from the overshot card if it is too heavy.  Also, too much shot for the bore size will definitely cause poor patterns.  For example a 20ga seems to pattern best in the 3/4 to 7/8oz range usually.  Trying to make it work with the heavier loads like they put in 3" 20ga shells  is usually counterproductive due to pattern degradation.  12ga gun seem to pattern  best with no more than 1 1/4oz.  And almost every gun I own shoots lighter than normal shot loads well.  I had a 10ga that was wonderful at trap with just 1 oz loads.  You might want to try the lighter loads if you are having pattern problems.  Having more shot, if it doesn't contribute to the pattern, is not a benefit.  

[Levy]

First, let me admit that I am confused at the prospect of the over powder card and the cushion wad pushing through the shot load and causing donut patterns.  I don't understand how something that weighs less and is less aerodynamic can push its way through the shot column.  As soon as the whole load leaves the bore, wouldn't the wadding start to slow down much more quickly than the shot.  How can it ever catch up with the shot again to cause any kind of effect on the pattern.  I do agree with Jerry that it makes more sense to me that something in front of the shot column (over shot card) would more likely be the cause of distorted or donut patterns.  Obviously a standard overshot card seems to be adequate or can be made to work for most folks.  My only experience with donut patterns was with a friends Navy Arms 12 ga. Classic shotgun.  He wasn't killing squirrels that he was shooting in range.  I asked him to show me what he was measuring his shot and powder in and it turned out to be two shotgun shells cut off to the appropriate lengths for each (he thought).  The powder measure held more volume that his shot measure.  I suggested that he switch them in use or use the same one for both.  He switched them and the donut patterns gave away to nice even coverage.  I know, that's pretty basic stuff.  I've heard that some people use cork over shot cards which disentergrate in use.

James Levy 

[James Rogers]

A quote from Keith Neal out of Great British Gunmakers, John Twigg and the Packington Guns 1740-1790.

"It is noticeable that they all have barrels which are slightly flared at the muzzle, not, as might be imagined, to spread the shot, but rather in an early effort to concentrate it. It is a well known fact that bad patterns are often produced by the wadding being driven thru the shot charge as it leaves the muzzle, but these old guns were wadded either with oakum or soft paper in such a manner that the wad formed a sort of cup behind the shot.  When this reached the muzzle, the bore being relieved at that point, the powder gas was able to escape around the shot charge which was still proteced by the wadding, therby holding the charge together. The was the theory and, provided the gun was properly wadded and a suitable grain of powder used, good close patterns could be obtained by this form of boring, as I can personally testify. A large bore gun even with a comparatively light shot charge will shoot a better pattern and do more execution than smaller bores of the same weight because less shot comes in contact with the side of the barrel. It would be a grave mistake to think that real efficiency in shooting was not acheived until the early 19th century or that earlier guns were not so well made. Every good gunmaker had his own secret of boring  and hsi own theories of haw a gun should be built, many of which were doubtless a direct result of trial and error, and unquestionably every type of gun was well tried in the 18th century, but the tricks of the trade were never revealed by a successful gunmaker. " 

[Daryl]

Capt. Jas'. quote of Neil Keith tells the story fairly well.  They had a handle on the problem, if not knowing or telling it out loud in so many words. Their relieved muzzle dropped the gas pressure right at the muzzle, so there was reduced 'blast' to send the wad through the shot column upon exit.  Another shot barrel that hasn't been retried to my knowledge was mentioned by James Forsythe in his book. That is, that to shoot strong with shot (tight patterns), the bore was tight in the centre and relieved from there to the breech as well as relieved from centre to the muzzle.  Although this is rather drastic, if is obvious the same 'relieving of pressure' would occur and a percentage of shot would bunch or compress at the middle tight spot where the bore was choked, then hold some percentage of shot there as do modern chokes cut at the muzzle.  Not only does a modern choke hold the wads back, but it compresses the shot at tightly as possible, which also contributes to tight patterns.  When pattern testing my side by side with black powder and smokeless, I found loose shot and wads loaded with black powder to out-pattern most smokeless loads - shot from the same barrels.  Before turning this into a cape gun with short smooth tubes & cylinder bores, it's .703" and .702" muzzles (imp. mod.) produced 80% plus quite easily with black powder loads.

Greener's 9th Edition has some photo's showing the wads from a cylinder bore being blown into the shot column with the resulting spread. The next picture shows the same load from a choked gun, same distance from the muzzle(close), with the wads 'held' back behind the shot could.  He noted this 'holding back of the wads' could be duplicated by roughing or cutting radial grooves in the muzzle, however he noted these fouled and become less effective. He was referring to breech loaders.  When loaded at the muzzle, the grooving would be kept quite clean when loading and therefore remain effective.  I think it was DP who mentioned this in a different thread.

 Jerry- we usually note having to put a heavy card between plastic and black powder in each of these threads about shotshell loading.  Thanks for mentioning it here.  It does little hard to keep this 'fact' in mind.  Not everyone here has read all the threads on shotshell loading, hence I started this thread. Too- not everyone reads every post- or those they do read, skip whole sentences which turn out to be quite important.  this results in repeating info.

 I've also read that our powders are such that we should be using 3F in out shotguns for better patterns as the muzzle pressure is lower than with slower burning powders like 2F or 1F - I'm not sure I agree with this, not having tested that suggestion. Forsythe also mentioned something like this pertaining to large bore shotguns used with shot and ball.

[northmn]

One reason I used to like a cushion wad when shooting trap with a ML was that it could be soaked and used to keep fouling under control.  I used to use a plain glass of water.  Almost every thread on shotguns tend to talk about how to increase their range.  I think Daryl is correct in that a heavy shotcup will help to tighten patterns and may test it when weather and time permit as I have some steel wads available.  When using a shotgun I like a usable pattern.  For pheasants over dogs, ducks over decoys and ruffed grouse that pattern is not necessarily a tight one.  I had an old double hammer Damascus barreled cartridge gun I shot a lot of grouse with using BP.  Its pattern would cover a car door at 30 yards or less.  Had to sell it for a wall hanger as it was breaking down.  Now have a 16 that is M/F that is a little tight with BP loads.  Open chokes worked great in an old Navy Arms Magnum I once had.  All had nice even patterns.  Turkeys seem to be bringing out the overloads and desires to turn a shotgun into something of a rifle.  Their head is for practical purposes stationary such that shot string does not matter much.  Using a fowler calling varmints like fox and coyote would be a similar use.  The comments by Jerry on best patterns reflects the theories that shotguns perform best with square loads.  7/8 oz in a 20 is actually closer to a square load than the "Express" one ounce.  Early 20's were actually loaded at 5/8 oz.  The English Gameguns were built around the fact that a larger bore patterns better with lighter loads.  12 ga with 1 1/16 oz in a 2 1/2 inch shell and 6 1/2 pound gun (shot load 1/96 of the gun weight).  I have seen a trend in this forum for those building fowlers to go to smaller bores.  I think it is because they shoot little shot and a lot of RB.  Really a fowler is best served in a larger bore for shot.

DP

[James Rogers]

I have seen a trend in this forum for those building fowlers to go to smaller bores.  I think it is because they shoot little shot and a lot of RB.  Really a fowler is best served in a larger bore for shot.
DP

I agree

[FL-Flintlock]

I didn't have much success with the heavy plastic wads for steel shot and lead shot.  Reference the "jug" post, using the cushion in the bottom of the plastic cup does help a little but not enough to make it worth while, if you put too thick of a cushion wad in the cup, the shot is at the top of the cup that opens too quickly.  Also, as I said before, the steel wads do much better if you buy the longer ones made for excessively heavy shot charges in 3" hulls - shorten the shot cup by cutting off the petals, because most are normally tapered, they get thicker the closer you get to the bottom which helps keep them closed longer.  Next problem is that the wad doesn't really stay with the shot long enough because it doesn't have enough mass - associated problem is getting flat or oval patterns.  Watching someone shoot standing off to the side about 10 feet and slightly behind the shooter, you can see the wad yaw rather quickly after it leaves the muzzle, when it yaws, it pushes the shot still in the cup flattening out the pattern but the direction of the flattening is random.  To cure the problem of the wad not staying with the shot long enough, I glued a fiber cushion to the bottom of the plastic, this adds mass to the wad so it runs with the shot for a little more distance and the extra drag on the back seemed to prevent yawing.  I ran through a whole bag of wads trying different things and never saw enough benefit in the pattern quality to make using them worth the cost nor the trouble.  BTW, the expensive special mega-magnum super duper whatever wads at about $0.40ea didn't work any better than the those from BPI that cost around $0.13ea.

I did try some solid (no petals) plastic cups from BPI, they did print better patterns from the straight cylinder bore, roughly between IC & Mod but a little closer to Mod.  They do have to be shortened as well because as is all too common, they're made for overly excessive shot payloads.  Again, problem is plastic fouling in the bore and just a side note about plastic fouling, no matter if you use a nitro card over the powder or not, plastic wads deposit plastic on the bore just from the friction and scrubbing against the steel.  I don't care how well the bore is polished or not, 10 rounds through my super polished hard chrome lined SKB bore burning Alliant Green Dot and it's still plastic fouled - burning black powder just increases the difficulty of removal because of the higher heat.  That's why I avoid using plastic wads in anything no matter what end it loads from or if it smokes or not.  On top of that, I've yet to find a load combo using a plastic wad that can't be improved using card wads and paper shot cups.  I cut my smoothbore teeth on smokeless and every new plastic gadget that came along ... until I picked up a huge lot of Alcan card wads, and ancient no-name single stage press and several hours of BTDT from the old fellow I purchased it all from. 

Yes, split the fiber wads into thinner pieces, normally I mage three or four from a 0.500" thick, I made a little jig to split them into exact thicknesses for building wad columns in cartridges (save the cut-off's for use in the ML)  Splitting the wad up also tends to improve the pattern a little even if you didn't have a problem with the wad blowing a doughnut.  The TP (quilted/fluffy toilet paper) wadding works great, sounds stupid but it really works.

If you've got a jug or Tula bore, forget using anything but thin paper shot cups because the plastic wads & cups eliminate the choke effect.  The very thin plastic wads will do okay but even those like the common AA/Rem/Fed trap/clays wads don't respond fast enough for the choke to be as effective as it can be.   

J. Levy,
The wad(s) actually gain velocity after they clear the muzzle because they are not being held-back by the full weight of the shot.  Once the shot is no longer contained by the barrel, the pellets are free to be pushed off to the sides by the wad that is being pushed by the muzzle blast.  The gases that make-up the muzzle blast are also no longer being held-back by the payload weight so they are free to expend their energy at will venting from the bore.  Keep in mind that the pressure in the bore is around 9,500 to 12,000psi, when the cork pops, all that pressure has to go somewhere.  The compressed gas venting from the muzzle has a tremendous velocity as compared to the velocity of the shot, it's this velocity differential that creates enough mass to drive the wad faster after it clears the muzzle.  This is why having a wide fairly deep crown is very important.  Reference the other post: look at the old Steven's shotguns that looked like they used a Rigid pipe reamer to make the crown but the worked extremely well.  Thus is why you will see high-end modern guns employing combinations of porting and muzzle flaring in an attempt to improve pattern performance - most of this is related to trying to counter the poor performance of the ammunition rather than the gun itself.

DP is right, you have to prevent the pellets from scrubbing off the bore as well as keep them from mashing against each other.  Any deformation of the pellets, the less likely they will fly straight.  I've tried many different buffing agents from the old stick-to-everything white plastic powder to powdered wood.  I welded a handle on a 3/4" x 5" steel pipe nipple, measure out a shot charge, check the quality of the pellets before mixing them with the buffer and putting them into the pipe nipple.  Cap the nipple and swing it like a hammer to give it one good solid whack on the anvil then dump out the shot and check it for damage.  Kind of a crude experiment but it gives you some idea of what to expect in the fired round - really proves the point of how brittle pure bismuth pellets are. 

Of all the sleeves/shot-cups I've tried, paper worked the best.  As with plastic wads/shot-cups, if you've got a jug/Tula choke, if you make the sleeve too-thick, it'll defeat most of the usefulness of the choke.  If you're running a cylinder bore, the thicker the sleeve and the more mass it has, the longer it'll stay with the shot and longer the effective pattern range will be. 

Word of caution: In most places, using something like the wire mesh or other metal to make a shot-cup/retainer is illegal.  It's a gray area according to the USA laws but generally swings to the black side leaving you facing federal firearms/ammunition charges as these fall into the same category as dart/flechette type loads even if you intend to use them in a muzzleloader, the projectile still falls under the heading of "ammunition" even if it's not a complete self-contained cartridge.

Now I'm going to comment yet again on the subject that just annoys the h*ll out of the "MEGA SUPER MAGNUM" guys!  Sales hype & B.S. sums it up in a nutshell or should I say a "shotgun shell"?  "More shot" does not mean "more performance"!  I can't help but chuckle everytime I hear the suppository shooters claiming you need 2+ ounces of shot from a 3.5" MEGA MAGNUM for turkeys, ducks or geese.  Jerry Lape touched on this so I know I'm not alone ... the heavier the payload, more than likely the less performance it'll produce.  Here's a little example I like to post on the modern gun forums since they all like to focus on "numbers":
12ga, 26"bbl:

3.5" MAGNUM
2oz load
#6 shot
450 pellets
Pellet weight 1.95gr
MVmax 1150fps
Pellet energy at the muzzle 6.0ftlbs
Average 11 pellets definite fatal hits in turkey head/neck
Load efficiency 2.5%
Pellets wasted 439
Pellet energy at 30yds 4.0ftlbs

Standard 2.75" hull
1oz load
#6 shot
225 pellets
Pellet weight 1.95gr
MVmax 1390fps
Peller energy at the muzzle 8.0ftlbs
Average 11 pellets definite fatal hits in turkey head/neck
Load efficiency 5%
Pellets wasted 214
Pellet energy at 30yds 5.0ftlbs

It ain't how many pellets you throw, it's all about pattern control and velocity. Another HUGE thing that most people overlook is the shot string length (SSL). SSL isn't as much of an issue with a stationary target like a turkey but it becomes a major player in wing shooting. When you break the numbers down and look at the actual flight pattern of a shot cloud, those 2oz magnum loads normally have an average SSL exceeding 23 feet. Considering the fact that the pellets are not evenly distributed throughout the string length and the cross sectional area of an intended flying victim is extremely small, when you place the bird in the 3D graph of the shot string, the resultant number of pellets that will "possibly" strike fatal hits on the target is extremely low. Go to a 1oz load and you can effectively shrink the shot string length to less than 7 feet resulting in a disproportional increase in the pellets that will "possibly" strike fatal hits. Top the potential fatal hit increase off with each pellet maintaining higher velocity and thus higher energy potential and you can see where this goes. From an ethical hunting standpoint, not only do the lighter & faster loads produce far more effective and rapid terminal results but they also considerably reduce the number of ineffectively wounded birds that will not be recovered - normally a "miss" is a "clean miss" rather than a single pellet in the guts that will cause mortality at some point much later in time.  Clays are NOT "live birds", two pellets can make a clay break look impressive, not so with a live bird.

One of the best performing loads I had was a 300gr (11/16oz) buffered 4/6 duplex shot load in the 20ga.  I tuned the same basic load for use in a fowler and a suppository gun running both BP & smokeless cartridges.  The fowler was done with a basic Tula choke and produced 70% patterns at 35yds.  The suppository gun came with a "modified" standard constriction choke, I modified the bore and existing choke to a more advanced Tula style similar to what SKB used to use.  At 25yds, 100% of the pattern would print into 8", 15" at 35yds and 30" at 45yds.  In that same gun I worked loads up to 1.375oz, the 7/8oz loads maintained very similar patterning but going up in payload weight from there would not increase effective pellet count, all the additional payload weight did was reduce velocity and increase the shot string length further reducing the effectiveness. 

I'll admit, in the 80's I got suckered into the MEGA MAGNUM hype but not for long, once I started testing loads, it didn't take long to see what worked and what was B.S. sales hype.  In a shotgun, no matter what the type or propellant, velocity is as important to effective range as pattern quality.  Give up either one and you give up effective range.  Another thing is that going with a bigger diameter bore doesn't mean you're going to get a more effective pattern.  It doesn't matter if you use a 8ga or a 28ga, if both are using a load capable of putting the same 10 known-fatal pellets into the neck/head of a turkey with each pellet carrying at least 3.2ftlbs of energy at the time of impact...what's the difference?  If you're 8ga is only producing a load efficiency of 2.8% how can anyone make a credible argument that it's somehow better than a 28ga that's producing 7.5% load efficiency?  Same question applies to velocity of the load - how can a credible argument be waged when the most velocity you can put on a 2.5oz load of shot is 1060fps as opposed to 1400fps on a 7/8oz load - given the same pellet size, it becomes quite clear that those impacting at a considerably higher velocity will be considerably more effective.

[northmn]

Another thing is that going with a bigger diameter bore doesn't mean you're going to get a more effective pattern.  It doesn't matter if you use a 8ga or a 28ga, if both are using a load capable of putting the same 10 known-fatal pellets into the neck/head of a turkey with each pellet carrying at least 3.2ftlbs of energy at the time of impact...what's the difference?  If you're 8ga is only producing a load efficiency of 2.8% how can anyone make a credible argument that it's somehow better than a 28ga that's producing 7.5% load efficiency?  Same question applies to velocity of the load - how can a credible argument be waged when the most velocity you can put on a 2.5oz load of shot is 1060fps as opposed to 1400fps on a 7/8oz load - given the same pellet size, it becomes quite clear that those impacting at a considerably higher velocity will be considerably more effective.

[/sup]
Here is a point I could disagree with.  A bigger bore will deliver a heavier charge at the same velocity as a smaller bore with the same % pattern density and actual density at a little longer range (3-5yards).  In BP velocity is not going to be much of a factor in that it has reasonable limits.  If you up the charge to get higher velocities patterns often suffer.  There is a point however, where dead is dead and the gains get to be negligible.  If I were forced to use 1oz of shot on ruffed grouse I would go on my happy way shooting grouse and see little need for heavier loads.  Might have been me, admit it is subjective, but I found 1 1/8 oz on pheasants to be more effective than 1oz.  Seemed like the dogs did not have to chase as much.  Also the heavier loads permit use of heavier shot.  On tail shots at tough birds like pheasants and mallards I always liked #5 or 4 lead.  6's that every one likes gave me feathers.  Same reason I do not like 8's and 7 1/2 on grouse. Work great on crossing shots but 7's and 6's are better on straight aways.  Had a 28 ga. ML that I sold as it was not so good on grouse. (sold some modern ones for that reason also) .  Been shooting grouse since I was about 13, which is more years than I like to admit.  I use your principle in my 16 and get 1400 fps with 1 oz.  You can do the same with a 12 at 1 1/8.  But in BP you have to balance the density with velocity.  You might get a usable pattern at 1400 but most shoot loads at about 1000-1100 fps maybe 1200.
I always used a little heavier shot to make up for the lack of velocity in a ML such a 6's on grouse instead of 7's.  On plastic wads I always motor mica to reduce friction and plan on using Crisco on LBC wads for BP.  As to cost, they are spendy and best used for steel.

DP

[Daryl]

This sort of a discussion is what I had in mind & hoped to see when I started this thread.  Excellent points, guys.  I don't have the load developement experience with muzzleloading shotguns you both have, that's for sure.

 As to the super heavy loads I agree wholeheartedly with FL Flinter.  With proper management, they are not needed, however on standing targets like turkey, they may be advantagveous to fill in patterns - I can see that.  If I can do it with 1oz orf 1/18oz, that's what I'll use.  I am talking of 12 bore, here.  Taylor used to use around 2 oz. in his Bess, but now has reduced that to 1 1/4oz. We need to do some load development on that gun for Heffley Creek next August.  It's a tremendious gun for pass shooting. It is almost impossible stop the swing.  With the Bayonette attached (to ward off attacking 'birds'), no one can stop it once it's moving on a clay.

 As to the wads hurting patterns, FL FLinter has expained it much better than I.

[FL-Flintlock]

DP,

Agreed, with reasonable shot payloads, a bigger bore will run the same velocity.  What I was commenting on are those on the mega-magnum kick that try running 2+oz from a 12ga - there's no way to get the velocity up without running pressures well in excess of what any shotgun is capable of handling without blowing up.  A 1.25oz in a 12ga isn't unreasonable but I rarely run more than 1.125oz and primarily only 1oz.

I was able to get the velocities up on the BP loads, it's all about the shot-cups and wads, they've got to be a single unit to maintain mass so they follow the shot well past the muzzle.  Straight cylinder bores need a thicker wall shot-cup because if the cup blows apart upon exit, so does the pattern.  Tula choke will also allow for higher velocities without pattern loss but it depends on the choke design itself.  - -  For the content of this discussion, it seemed to be about getting the best patterns at the longest ranges which I think is why there's a little confusion between us.   If you're primarily shooting 27yds or less on smaller game, there's no reason to be running wide-open throttle loads, I was commenting on loads for turkey & longer ranges where shot string length, pattern density and individual pellet momentum are the three most important considerations.  If it's a grouse load you're after, try an 0.125" nitro card, en TP wadding to make about 0.500" in the bore and put the shot right on top of it w/o any other card/fiber wad then bump the powder charge up a little at a time, you can throw a little more shot & open the patterns w/o blowing holes in it, sometimes a little more/less TP will give some added fine tuning.

I'm also in total agreement with using larger pellet sizes.  I normally run 4/6 or 5/7 duplex loads in the 24ga & bigger, in the 24ga and smaller I usually 5/7 or single-size charges of #5 or #6 pellets.  (#7 shot is hard to find anymore though) #7.5 works okay for the duplexes to around 27yds on pheasant & smaller but #7 will bump the effective range another 5-6yds.  Six or seven larger pellets that produce effective wound channels are more effective than 12-15 pellets that don't have enough penetration power.

[FL-Flintlock]

As to the super heavy loads I agree wholeheartedly with FL Flinter.  With proper management, they are not needed, however on standing targets like turkey, they may be advantagveous to fill in patterns - I can see that.  If I can do it with 1oz orf 1/18oz, that's what I'll use.  I am talking of 12 bore, here. 

Daryl,

Thanks for the compliments!  As for "filling the pattern", if it's not filled with a reasonable payload, something isn't right somewhere.  Not to beat a dead horse but the more payload, the less velocity - the less velocity, the less effective each pellet will be. 

Pellets are nothing more than itty bitty round balls and we all know how fast a RB looses velocity, same goes for round pellets in a smoothbore.  That's why I use the example of the 1150fps on the 2oz 3.5" magnum 12ga because everyone seems to think it is the load needed for turkeys.  If the shot is already starting out 200fps slower then looses another 20-25% over 30-35yds of flight, it doesn't take long to see how low the per-pellet energy becomes.  Those #6 pellets don't know nor care if they were launched with a 3.5" magnum or a 37ga flintlock, they simply have a given starting velocity, a given velocity loss in flight and there's only so much left by the time they reach the target.  Add to this that the 1150fps is obtainable only in a barrel that is at least 28" long, the common turkey guns with 24"-26" bbls chop another 30-70fps off so from a ballistics standpoint, it's a rather weak load.  Add in the fact that most of the modern dedicated turkey guns don't average more than 11 known fatal pellets in the head/neck from that 2oz 450 pellet load, it paints a not so flattering picture. 

When I had my 12ga fowler, strait cylinder bore, I built a 1.125oz load that gave the same 8-14 known fatal hits in the head/neck at 30yds.  The suppository 20ga pushing the little 300gr (11/16oz) buffered 4/6 duplex payload at 1400fps held an average known fatal pellet count of 15 at 35 yards while each pellet delivered 1.5-3.5ftlbs (higher being the #4's) more energy.  At 60yds the pattern held 75% and would knock a wild ringneck rooster out of the sky with authority - the 20ga fowler running the same basic load sure impressed the lot of suppository gun magnum-addicts I went hunting with several years ago in PA.

[Daryl]

11/16's is the 3" load for a .410 today. We all know how small the actual killing pattern of a 3" .410 is(I hope).  The shooting I did with the .44 smoothbore was with 1/2oz. & 8's or 8 1/2's.  On the pattern board, I got killing patterns, no holes in 20" circle to 30 yards.  That little gun also hit 10 straight from 16 yards, beating the 12 and 10 bore doubles.

A long time friend of 36 years, who passed away last fall, used that little .44 smoothbore as his 'trail' gun for roughly 20 years, right up until last summer. He claimed 4"  Round Ball groups at 80 yards. I didn't have that good fortune, but it was good for bunny'd heads to almost 50 yards for me.

 For a shot load, I used 3, 1/10" disks of cardboard or monopoly board on the powder, then shortened .410 plastic (no cushion) wad with 1/2oz. shot, then .020" OS wad.  There were no donuts and the shot seemed to hit with a slap - without trailing pellets. Birds, grouse and crows were easy with it. Heads and necks were usually riddled on 20 yard shots.

 Also, that's the barrel I lapped in .007" or .008" of jug choke for a distance of 3", 1" back from the muzzle. Easily felt when loading, but didn't hurt round ball accuracy at all.

[FL-Flintlock]

The extra 0.205" of bore diameter on the 20ga cartridge gun or 0.210" on the ML over the 0.410" bore shortens up the shot string considerably with the light load which makes a difference on a running/flying target because almost all the pellets arrive at pretty much the same time eliminating the lead/lag issues common to longer strings.  Of course it also means that the trigger nut has be tight too!

[northmn]

The whole thing with scatterguns is of course matching to the game.  Smaller gauges will surprise you at times but primarily the biggest difference is the outer circle of the pattern where people like myself sometimes (as in very often) hit the flying bird with.  Very skilled shooters that could hit flying with a rifle or almost hit with the center core and a small bore will be strong in that area at a surprising range.  We are talking about the 10 to 15 inches of the densest part of the pattern.  Consider that, if you do the math, one half of the area in the 30" pattern used to determine patterns is within the center 21" or so and the other half in the outer 8-9 inches.  Percentage wise you might find 75% of the pattern in the center 21"  (% of the pattern not shot count).  I used to work to develop even patterning loads that sweeten that outer area.  Small shot charges do not leave much for that outer area.  The magnum charges Flflinter mentions send the shot into never never land somewhere. The setback forces on a long shot column smashes a lot of bottom pellets. Time and again I would go back to the old 1 1/4 oz duck load after trying magnums.  Its a matter of balance.  Zutz used to claim that really, patterns should be determined on a 28" circle as that is more usable.  From the ones I have seen I cannot argue.  I paid a premium price for a 25 lb bag of 7 magnum shot and only use it hunting.  Nickel 7's became available through Ballistic Products and perform very impressively on pheasants for their diameter.  If lead 6's work on turkeys I would think they would also.  I really do not often use a shot sleeve in a ML as  BP tends to pattern the way I like anyway.   

DP

[FL-Flintlock]

DP,

You and I have two different approaches on this one, while you're looking for the "outer circle", I have always built my loads to achieve the smallest overall pattern or "center-heavy" as some call it.  I hunted more "hard" (thick cover) areas than anywhere else and prefered a clean miss to loosing a cripple.  Not using a sleeve does send more pellets into the outer circle of the pattern.  Reducing pellet damage on set-back is simply a matter of adjusting the wadding to match the load.

[northmn]

I do not use a sleeve mostly because I never saw a need to more than opening a pattern.  Actually I hunt a great deal of heavy cover for Ruffed grouse.  I found I crippled fewer birds with a more usable "outer circle" pattern.  Especially open shots at pheasants.  To do so requires the use of a reasonable shot charge.  I lose very few cripples as I hunt with a good retriever.  I still agree with Don Zutz when he mentioned the 28 ga. and and stated that fortunately those using the 28 also seem to have good dogs which probably makes the bore look better than it really is.  I went as high as 1 3/8 oz and felt that it was a bit overdone while spitting out pellets at the table and went to 1 1/8 and 1 1/4 oz loads.  As I stated, I am quite content with a 1oz load on Ruffed Grouse.  I have hunted them for about 40 years with a variety of loads and guns, and have settled on 1oz of 7's or 6's.  On grouse, flintlock fowlers present a very interesting challenge.  If one likes to eat grouse it isn't all wrong to occaisionally pot one with a flintlock.  The dog often puts them up a tree like a squirrel.

DP

[Daryl]

Contrary to shotgunning ruffed grouse back in Ontario, out here in the West we use rifles and go for head shots.  I didn't believe it either, until I landed in Smithers. I thought Taylor was blowing smoke, writing about shooting grouse with a rifle - load of bull $#@* - was spot-on- rifle hunting grouse is a blast!  I've seen him shoot the heads off ruffies at 50 yards with his .45 3 1/4" Sharps. We like to get closer with the flinters - 25 yards is fair game. BTW- I killed many grouse with my .58 Hawken using card wads and 1oz. shot. They had to be close, but the rifle did well with #9's.  The patterns opened quickly due to the rifling, but was still OK to 20, maybe 25 max. yards on rising birds.  Hard to swing an 11 pound rifle quickly, but I was younger then.  I also shot a lot of them with patched round ball and 140gr. 2F when out hunting moose.  You don't want to hit the body with that load- I did, only to find grouse parts in the bushes all around the 'impact' area.