Apprentice

[Sackett]

I'd like to announce my presence and extend a warm greeting to everyone here. I am as you can no doubt clearly tell, a new member.

I had to pause just a moment to recall just how I came to this pursuit, and it slowly came back to me. I have a friend who is strongly into Civil war reenacting. Personally I'm not real into war, I can't see how anyone would want to dwell on or reenact the subject. Personally I don't think they are that great of a thing or a thing to be taken lightly, but regardless, it brought up the subject of muskets, my friend was needing to acquire an appropriate musket. That gave me pause as I realized that I didn't know what kind of rifles they carried in the civil war, and that disturbed me as I dislike not knowing things. Somehow in my research of civil war weapons I came across the Track of the Wolf website and it suddenly dawned on me, as much as I've never been all that into black powder and instead preferred weapons that were coldly efficient machines, that it looked like it would be fun to build a black rifle.

So I ordered the Track of the Wolf catalog, and looked, and surfed the web and found some other resources and websites like Chambers and muzzleloaderbuilderssupply.com etc. I'm not really into "Kits" per say, the preinlet kits look a little too much like the snap together model kits from childhood. It almost seems like cheating, plus you don't get to choose your wood, I'm anal about choosing my own wood.

So I guess my questions are about assembling my own bits and pieces. How does this work? How does one choose what kind of lock to go with what caliber/length, twist rate? Is there any rhyme or reason?

I'm interested in staying historically correct to a degree. How do the different calibers rate up historically? If a person wished to use this weapon to hunt say, deer, is there a good historically correct caliber to stick with? I'm not really a big is better person, my opinion is a .22 between the eyes will have more impact that a .45 that misses, and this applies to .40 vs .54 I'm sure. However I'm a pretty stout fellow so a .54 doesn't hold any fear for me, but it seems it would be weightier and take more lead to feed it and all. What are your thoughts on this?

Locks. How do you determine what locks fit what, and what historical period they are from?

I was thinking I'd start with the main hardware first, barrel, lock, trigger, and work from there. With that in mind, how would one go setting those up say at muzzleloaderbuilderssupply.com

What's the difference between a 7/8", 15/16, and a 1" barrel?     

19380 - .50 x 7/8” x 42” GM
Green Mountain Straight Octagon Rifle Barrel, breech threads 5/8–18, 1 Turn in 70”

19420 - .50 x 15/16 x 42” GM
Green Mountain Straight Octagon Rifle Barrel, breech threads 5/8–18, 1 Turn in 70”

19450 - .50 x 1” x 36” GM
Green Mountain Straight Octagon Rifle Barrel, breech threads 3/4–16, 1 Turn in 70”

I assume outside diameter yes, but in terms of strength and why/when would you use one instead of the other, etc?

Also, when would you use a 36" vs a 42"? Historically was there a timeperiod changeover aside from the later Hawkins and such?

Also, how are the barrels there at muzzleloaderbuilderssupply, $105 seems pretty cheap for a barrel.

I realize they are just straight barrels, not swamped or anything, but still, seems pretty cheap. I thought I'd stay away from swamped barrels at first.

How do you pick the proper breech plug to fit your barrel and lock?

I'd like to do a flintlock, and I like some of the nicer bronze engraved locks on the website.

How do they come though? Do they actually come as pictured on the website, or are they in the rough, do they requite assembly, polishing, engraving, etc?

Sorry for the newb questions, but I am a newb. 

Also in regards to wood, was Walnut ever used? I have some nice local Walnut, not real super nice or anything, but an ok crotch section. It's local Walnut though, and it seems a gunmaker historically would have used what was available locally. I don't know that it's ready for use though, it's only been drying for a couple years and it's the better part of a 4" slab, so really it should probably sit for another 2 years at least, but it's been indoors and might be closer to ready that I think.

I'm not real fond of lighter colored woods, and Walnut is so nice to work with.

Anyhow, I hope I haven't talked your ear off!

Cheers!

[Mike Brooks]

Or, in other words, what is the meaning of life?

[lew wetzel]

welcome,your best bet would to go out and get yourself a few books on the history and different styles or schools of rifles and the get the book"recreating the american longrifle" or "building the pennsylvania rifle".
track of the wolf has these books available...once you decide what style of gun you want to build and start accumulating parts then get on here and fire away with the questions and use the archives to search for some things that you might need answers to because everything about building flintlock rifles has already been covered here 4-5 times atleast since the site came up....welcome to the board !!!! 

[Ken G]

Hi Sackett,
Welcome to the board.  Wow!  That's a list of questions.  Most of them are not simple answers.   You may need to ask them one at a time so they don't get lost in the back and forth of a thread.
Lets start with the "Getting Started" part.  You really need to get a good book on building. If you have Track's catalog, look for Peter Alexander's book.  "The Gunsmith of Grenville County" .  There are several good books out there but this one is one of the most complete ones one the building process. 
Cheers,
Ken

[Larry Pletcher]

As a starting point I'm glad Ken recommended Peter Alexander's book: "The Gunsmith of Grenville County".  Chapter 1 discusses styles by region and time period.  While volumes could and have been written on regional styles, Mr. Alexander is a starting point.  It will show you the size of the educational task you have begun.

There are a wealth of other books by authors like Kindig, Shumway, and Kauffman.  Again this is just scratching the surface.   

Nothing can be more enlightening than holding some of these guns in your hands.  Getting to a gun show devoted to the long rifle will be a huge step forward.  One of the list owners just listed a number of gunshows around the country that would be helpful.  Not knowing where you are from prevents being more specific.

Regards,
Pletch

[rich pierce]

Good questions and advice.  To simplify, I'd say that longrifles made between 1740 and 1860 probably varied as much as automobiles varied between 1900 and 2009, and in 1900 and 2009.  So when you ask about barrels and locks, etc, some styles belong together or belong to a particular period.  Like a Model T would have a magneto for ignition, a '56 Chevy a distributor with points, and a new car will have electronic ignition.  Asking which cars have electronic ignition gets you to a timeframe, but doesn't tell you anything about style, right?

So most of us here at ALR study originals that were made at a particular time and place and then build something that fits within a recognizable framework.  Others are "contemporary" builders who use the longrifle form as a canvas for their creative art.

The first rule in learning about originals is to not use catalogues and current offerings as a resource for understanding originals.  Even the very best, who provide kits that are historically based, do not provide enough information to help you understand much about the originals on which they are based.  They know that folks who want to research, will, and those who don't, won't, and their catalogues are designed to market their wares, like any business should.  Big expensive picture books with measurements of originals are your best investment and are worthy of a lifetime of study.  My "Rifles in Colonial America" books by Shumway bought in the mid-80's when they first came out, are dog-eared and seldom lie unopened a week, even now.

One of the best places to start in your thinking is with a historical timeframe, and another is with a period that produced guns of a style you like.  It's safe to generalize that early longrifles, 1760's-1780's, had wide buttstocks, big flat buttplates, not so much drop to the buttstock, and used barrels that were thick at the breech. Few inlays adorned early rifles.   Later styles of longrifles had narrower buttplates with more curvature and were more slender, and the carving styles changed and fancier rifles began to include inlays, all over them.  By the 1820's, halfstocks emerged and these varied from rifles designed for the eastern to midwestern trade to bigger calibers for the west.

Once you start to focus in on a timeframe or style, there will be plenty more opportunities to learn about what components etc are best to recreate something recognizable, if that's your desire.

For deer hunting, you need to know your state game laws about minimum calibers.  Most of us prefer .45 or larger.  The .45 is fine to 70 yards with well placed shots.  Thankfully I never wounded a deer and lost it with a muzzleloader, using calibers from .45 to .58.  But there's no doubt a bigger ball will anchor them in a hurry and reach out further.

[northmn]

As to getting started.  On your first few use the less expensive materials.  By that I mean you do not ahve to start with the fancier grade locks and wood.  I personally would recommend saving the better wood until you have built a couple.  A 7/8" barrel in the same caliber is a lighter barrel than a 15/16.  If you feel the need to load extra heavy you are shooting too light of a caliber and need to go up.  You cannot magnumize a BP gun such that a smaller caliber is more powerful than a big one.  If a 50 seems too light get a 54.  On deer a 50 is not too light with reasonable charges.  Also you might want to start out on a plainer gun.  Straight barrels are good starters, swamped are better for later.  Building a nice rifle is as much about knowing measurements such as the depth of the wrist as inletting.  Good luck have fun learning.

DP 

[Dale Halterman]

Seems like you have some research to do before you start buying parts. You have gotten some really good advice so far, I would like to add my thoughts.

First, get an idea of what you want to build. You have asked very specific questions about locks and barrel size but it appears that you haven't picked a school. That is kinda like trying to decide if you want the leather interior or not before you pick the car.

The best ways to do this is to look at original rifles and to study illustrated books. Rick mentioned the RCA books and they are great. You might also consider "Kentucky Rifles and Pistols 1750-1850" by Johnson. It is mostly a picture book, but it will give you a good idea of the different schools and you may find a particular style that you like.

As far as events to attend or places to see original guns, that depends on where you are. If you are anywhere near Pennsylvania, you should try to make Dixon's gunmakers fair in July in Kempton, PA.

Dale H

[Roger Fisher]

Yes "anywhere near Pa"?  It is nice to know generally, who we are talking to!!

You are already aware of a few things that the average guy has no idea about!

Check out the archives on this site since your answers are often found there!

Personal suggest is to get hold of Chuck Dixons book on recreating the Pa longrife, since he walks you thru the process step by step.  I have built a number of rifles, smoothies and Chunk guns and Dixons book is referred to often and lays on the bench altho I have to dig thru a lot of stuff to find it!

[Dphariss]

I would recommend Dixons "The Art of Building a PA Kentucky..."
Kit Ravenshear's small booklets are very good. These are in the Track of the Wolf catalog.
If you live within driving range of Kempton, PA Dixon's ML Shop should be a good resource.

You need a number of references since different people do things differently.

You may be able to obtain books by Kauffman and Kindig through interlibrary loan. The 2 Vol "Rifles of Colonial America" by Shumway can sometimes be gotten this way. It saves money and allows examining the books before buying.
You can buy videos or rent them from SmartFlix.

50 cal is a perfectly adequate deerslayer. The 54 is very common but I believe the average American flintlock rifle caliber was under 52. The first US Army "issue" rifle was a 50 caliber.

The Chambers kits make into excellent rifles. If you have not built a rifle before it will teach you lot and make a nice rifle in the process. It will also prevent you from ending up with an accretion of parts that really do not belong together.
Remember the old masters did not necessarily make everything. They bought barrels, locks and in fact almost everything needed could be purchased by the 1770-1780s. If not before.

What you really need is a mentor or master who is willing to pass on information.
Just make sure he actually knows what he is doing.

This site is about the best for information and tutorials. It will also help you find makers who might be of assistance.

Dan

[Benedict]

All of the above contain good comments/suggestions.  But if you are in the West, don't forget that there are Historical Gun Makers Guilds in Montana, Washington and Oregon.  These are great resources.

Bruce

[Ed Wenger]

Hi and welcome aboard!  All of the advice given is excellent, and comes from guys who are knowledgeable craftsmen, well studied in the American Longrifle.  My only two cents to offer is in the area of kits.  In my opinion, I wouldn't be in a big hurry to write them off.  Most all of them, Chambers, Dunlap, even Track, are not a slap together endeavor.  For a beginning builder, you'll get plenty of great experience, keeping in mind that barrels and locks won't just snap in, holes need to be drilled, some need to be tapped, butt pieces inlet, etc...  I would venture to say that most of the guys who gave the good advice started by building from kits.  In any event, have fun and stand by for a fascinating experience.

Ed

[David Veith]

All of the thing that was voiced above is right on. The only thing that I would add is The lock, barrel and the triggers is the heart of the gun. So these pieces buy in quality. For it will make or brake what ever you decide on doing. I have A friend that had a old 1970s lock that was a Spanish one and it still is giving him $#*!. Listen and don't be a bull in a china store like he can be.
David Veith

[Sackett]

Hi all!

Quite the welcome you've given me, and advise as well. 

I might be a bit slow getting back to y'all, my life is rather busy right now and I don't have internet acess like I used to, I'm pretty much down to work and home, and I don't have time at work, and as of late by the time I get home I'm too tired to do anything but crash. A project like this isn't really a flash in the pan sort of deal, if you don't mind the pun though  so I don't suppose it matters much.

A bit of history one me. I've never made a rifle, or musket before, but I have done rifle work and have wood carving experiance. I started carving wood when I was about 9-10, joined the local woodcarving club EOWA here in the eastern part of the state, sort of fell out of the club as it was a bit of a drive but continued on my own learning from books and just doing whatever I wanted to do in general. As a result I'm pretty confident in being able to make pretty much whatever I want out of wood.

As a kid, I was an avid BB and pellet gun shooter, I know that sounds silly, but they are really a load of fun when you're young. I restocked several of them in walnut, one a Daisy, just did a typical restock job in it, the insetting where the stock meets the action is a contortion, it's designed to be blow molded plastic, not hand made wood, but I got it sorted. The second was a Crossman that I actually did for a guy at church, he'd seen what I'd did with my daisy, and was impressed enough to ask I do one for him. After that I made a thumbhole stock for a Benjamin pellet rifle, a sweet little gun responsible for the sniping of countless grasshoppers out of sunflower trees.  All this was when I was 12-14 probably. After that I outfitted a little Ithica .22, and a few other things, then sort of ran out of time and space and things to do with it. I always really enjoyed stock work though, and wanted to pursue it further. walnut in particular is a joy to work with. I'm a bit alergic to it sadly, it always irritates my lungs, but proper ventilation can help sort that out. Speaking of this I noticed elsewhere on here someone was cautioning working with certain exotic woods such as ebony, and as a turner also, I can affirm that many woods are in fact very toxic. Most people here, dealing with the small quantities such as for end caps, inlay, etc, are probably never going to see any adverse reactions with the exception of perhaps ebony dust or cases of individual sensitives. Cocoblolo for instance can send sensitive or sensitized people into arrest simply by being near it such as walking into a shop that it was been worked on in. Again, it's something you're more likely to deal with if you turn wood and do a lot of sanding and such, but still, I suppose it can happen to anyone. I'm rambling here, best get back on some sort of topic.  Here is a good site though that sort of lists out the woods and their potential effects. http://www.ubeaut.com.au/woodstuf.htm

Or, in other words, what is the meaning of life?

Exactly. 

Ok, a reoccurring theme is, get some books and educate yourself.    Right, sounds like a good starting place. I believe I'll see if I can't interlibrary loan some of them, and sort out the time periods and styles. I was actually already looking into this. (: Thank you for the suggestions on which ones to get though, that was helpful, there's quite an assortment in Track of the Wolf.

As far as Barrel, lock, and Trigger though, if I have any idea of the time period or style I'm after, isn't it safe to go ahead and order these? I'm not quite there but close, and as such I was trying to sort out how to match them up.

I was thinking of keeping this gun fairly simple, I'm not one for ornate scrollwork and such anyhow. I rather like clean traditional lines. I thought a full size plan from TOTW or such would help me get the proportions.

Location. Unfortunately I'm not near Pennsylvania or Kentucky or any of those, I'm way out here in the center of the universe aka Oklahoma. I went to a gun show last week, but it had very little in the way of black powder. We have the Wannamacher Gun show coming up here in a few months though, it's a rather large show, and they usually have quite the collection of things, I thought maybe I'd be able to find some nice examples and bits and pieces there.

Hunting. Here the requirements are essentually .40 cal and larger, and no breech loading muzzeloaders. That leaves things pretty wide open. I'm not real up on how BP compares in terms of power and take down ability in relation to normal firearms, but from your posts it seems .45-.54 would be best to assure good anchoring ability. I'm not real into hunting or anything, but it would be an experiance to go all the way with it and take it out in the field after it's finished.

All of the thing that was voiced above is right on. The only thing that I would add is The lock, barrel and the triggers is the heart of the gun. So these pieces buy in quality. For it will make or brake what ever you decide on doing. I have A friend that had a old 1970s lock that was a Spanish one and it still is giving him $#*!. Listen and don't be a bull in a china store like he can be.
David Veith

How does muzzleloaderbuilderssupply.com rank up in terms of quality?

I'm a little confused when it comes to just exactly who makes the locks and such. Do places such as muzzleloaderbuilderssupply.com, Chambers, etc, make their own locks, or are they all supplied to them by a central supplier? I'm confused as I see things such as "Chambers locks are the best", etc, and some of his look (to my inexperienced eye) very much like some of the ones offered say at muzzleloaderbuilderssupply.com, and I didn't know if what was being said was, Chambers buys quality locks, or if Chambers actually makes his own locks, etc.

As many of these are simply replicas, I know you're going to see alike locks from different places, but I'm curious how to tell these "cheap" locks and bits that I keep hearing about apart from quality locks.

I was budgeting about $300 for the lock, barrel, and trigger. Is this a reasonable amount to expect to get a decent quality lock, barrel, and trigger setup for?

I'm really shying away from a kit though, as said before I prefer to pick and work my own wood. Making the best of a plain machine roughed and inletted stock does not sound like fun to me. Besides, it's not authentic. Not that there is anything wrong with it, nor the people who choose to use them. It undoubtedly shaves a tremendous amount of time and work off the job, and gives people without the tools and equipment to rough out their own the chance to enjoy the craft. To me though, picking the wood and roughing it out is a great deal of the fun.

All right, it's late, I've got to go,

Cheers!
Matthew

[Gene Carrell]

You cannot go wrong with a Chambers- built lock. Other makers are well  respected as well (davis for example).  As to your $300 budget, yes you can aquire a quality barrel  (straight), lock and set trigger for your budget. If you want simple for your first rifle, take a look at Tennessee or Southern Mountain rifles. These are good looking and  go well with walnut and straight barrels. Their architecture  lends to shootability also.
Susie at MBS can help you with a selection of parts and may even have a class coming this year to help you get started. She is not too far from you.

[Dale Halterman]

Jim Chambers manufactures locks, and sells them through various retailers or direct through his website and at shows. He also sells lock kits. Some outfits buy his kits and assemble them themselves, then sell them as Chambers locks. I prefer to get the locks directly from Jim because that way I know the assembly is done right.

Your $300 budget will limt you to a straight barrel as Gene pointed out. You do need to be careful of weight and balance with a straight barrel. The first flintlock I built has a 42" .45 caliber barrel 15/16" across the flats. I loved it for offhand shooting when it was new, but as I have gotten older it is more and more of a chore to shoot. So it stays on the rack most of the time now.

Since you mention buying your trigger, I assume you mean a set trigger. I prefer Davis triggers, but I am sure others have their favorites.

Dale H

[Dave B]

Michael,
Welcome to the best place on the Web. I think you are on the right track. I too have always liked the bulk wood removal and bringing the shape into being from the blank of wood. My first rifle was a scratch built half stock and I didn't have the amount of information to go on that is available to day so its a boxy looking club. Looking at other builders work is helpful and there should be some folks in your neck of the woods that would be willing to show their stuff. The biggest thing that you will do well to take to heart is the need to see original rifles. The pictures in the books are helpful but do not translate well into the three dimensional item you want to build. The plans you can get from Track of the Wolf or Susie at MSB will help with this due to the crossectional views they have but even so nothing is so helpful as the real thing in your own hand.

Now you do realize that once you start down this slippery slope you will never be the same. You will start to find more reasons to sit down at the computer to ask more questions and see if any one has posted pictures of another original in the virtual museum. Your wife will start to wonder what has happened to you when you don't come to bed late at night because your on a roll shaping out the stock.
You may find that your palms start to sweat when you drive by the woodcraft store. Of course you have already have tested positive for WWTD (Wood Working tool Disease) There is no cure for the advanced form of this diagnosis but it can be treated by group therapy. This is where Dixons Gunmakers Fair or the Left coast gunmakers fairs are helpful. This for me has been the bigest help in my building to sit and talk with others like minded sharing tips and soaking up the knowledge being shared.
This has been a great place to be and you will find loads of help when you need it.
Welcome aboard.

[Sackett]

You cannot go wrong with a Chambers- built lock. Other makers are well  respected as well (davis for example).  As to your $300 budget, yes you can aquire a quality barrel  (straight), lock and set trigger for your budget. If you want simple for your first rifle, take a look at Tennessee or Southern Mountain rifles. These are good looking and  go well with walnut and straight barrels. Their architecture  lends to shootability also.
Susie at MBS can help you with a selection of parts and may even have a class coming this year to help you get started. She is not too far from you.

A stupid question I'm sure, but who is MBS?

[Ky-Flinter]

Muzzleloader Builders Supply.

We need a glossary of all these acronyms we use!

-Ron

[Sackett]

Thanks for the info guys. I didn't realize MBS was right down the road, it's only a couple hours away. I can't believe I didn't associate MBS with Muzzleloader Builders Supply, duh. 

The info on the locks is interesting. So Chambers casts/totally makes his own locks, as does MBS, etc, etc.

How do they come? I've seen threads on polishing locks. I know Chambers comes in a variety of ways, kits, assembled, etc. Is it possible to get a finished ready to install lock, or do they all need polishing or assembly?

Cheers!
Matthew

[Dale Halterman]

Matt, I think the proper way to ask that last question is, "Is it possible to use a lock as it comes from the dealer/manufacturer?"

The answer is yes, but you might not want to.

First, every builder I know disassembles their locks and files a slight angle on the edge of the lock plate to make them easier to inlet.

Second, of the two major manufacturers That I deal with (Chambers and L&R), I have not yet received a lock that didn't benefit from a little polishing of the internal parts and tuning. Chambers generally requires the least of the two. They will generally all work without this, just not as well.

Third, the exterior of the lock plate and the external parts are generally shipped as cast. This may or may not be the finish you want, even after browning. Again, most people I know do some polishing of the exterior surfaces for appearance sake. The lock functions fine without this step, of course.

Last, you will, of course, have to drill and tap the lock plate for the lock screws to hold it in place.

Dale H

[AndyThomas]

I agree with Dale on this.

I've had the occasion to disassemble several guns built by "low cost" builders. One of the cost saving techniques they use is to simply drill and tap the rear lock bolt hole, and then brown the lock, as is.

When working on the guns, I pointed out to the owners that the locks on the "old guns" wouldn't have had casting flash or the roughness left by casting, since they were forged, rather than cast. They would have been smooth, with perhaps some file marks.

I guess what I'm saying is, how authentic to the time and place do you want to be? That's a question we need to ask every time we work on a gun. Actually, a gun doesn't need to be authentic to any thing. We can make whatever we want.

Well, anyway,
Andy