Author Topic: loading a coned barrel  (Read 13297 times)

Offline yip

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loading a coned barrel
« on: November 10, 2013, 04:23:29 AM »
  I hope this hasn't been asked before, but should a short starter be used on a coned barrel? I've been using a short starter for years. just wondering,

Offline alex e.

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Re: loading a coned barrel
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2013, 04:40:58 AM »
I have  2-3 guns that are coned. No need for a SS if properly done. one less item to carry in the shooting bag.
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Offline moleeyes36

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Re: loading a coned barrel
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2013, 04:53:22 AM »
There is certainly no reason why you can't use a short starter with a coned barrel, it won't hurt anything.  If you're loading a very tight patch and ball combination and you find it difficult to load without a short starter, go ahead and use it whether or not the barrel is coned.  Some barrels I've seen that are deemed "coned" by the rifle owner are really little more than a slightly enlarged crown and still require a short starter for loading a tight ball and patch combination.  If you need to use a short starter, use one.  It's your call and no harm done.

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Offline wattlebuster

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Re: loading a coned barrel
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2013, 06:34:59 PM »
All my rifle barrels are coned therefore I dont have a need for a short starter. To me its just a personal preference. If you want and like using one then by all means get er done ;D
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Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: loading a coned barrel
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2013, 07:05:06 PM »
The reason for coning the muzzle, is to eliminate the short starter, so why would you cone the muzzle, and then elect to use a short starter? It just seems a lot like the department of redundancy department, to me.

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Offline yip

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Re: loading a coned barrel
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2013, 07:17:51 PM »
  my barrel is an Ed Rayl 44" long and I use a .490 ball with a 16 thousand patch, any ideas?

Offline Kermit

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Re: loading a coned barrel
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2013, 07:24:48 PM »
"Should?" "May," maybe, but not "should."

Your ball/patch combo should work fine w/o a short starter in a coned barrel. If you are a member of the Taylor & Daryl Really Tight Fit Club, you may still find a short starter effecatious.
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Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: loading a coned barrel
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2013, 07:51:20 PM »
Kermit, are you 'dissing' the "Never have to wipe all day Society"?  Ha!!
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necchi

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Re: loading a coned barrel
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2013, 08:36:23 PM »
Quote
If you are a member of the Taylor & Daryl Really Tight Fit Club, you may still find a short starter efficacious.
Exactly,
While a conned muzzle may well facilitate a thump pressure seating for the required "cut at the muzzle" or getting the PRB below muzzle,,
A short start may still be needed to begin that "rifling impartment" of the lands through the patch to the ball.
Once the initial "crush" of a tight fitting combo has been made the main rod will be easier to use.

There is no "Should" rule here, it's all about what's easiest for the individual and how he wants to load.


Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: loading a coned barrel
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2013, 10:37:19 PM »
 O.K. now you guys really have me confused. I have been led to believe that the coned muzzle is the method used in the past to load a "hunting" rifle without a short started. I personally have never seen an antique target rifle with a coned muzzle. In fact, I have seen several old target rifles that have no crown at all. Why then would you need to generate a load that is so tight that you need a coned muzzle, and a short starter to make it work? This sounds a lot like the shooters I shot with 35, or 40 years ago that had to have a short starter, and a mallet, and a rigid metal range rod, and heaven knows what else, to get their load down the barrel. This is starting to sound like its a lot more about all the junk you drag to the range, than it is actual shooting.

                    Hungry Horse

Offline Candle Snuffer

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Re: loading a coned barrel
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2013, 11:00:31 PM »
I see what you're saying, HH...

I don't use coned muzzles myself.  Don't even know for sure if they are truly authentic, and if so, to what time period?

Makes more sense to me that if you were hunting local in friendly territory you might just use a tight patch & ball combination.

If hunting in questionable territory where danger is always a real possibility (man or beast) you might just use a looser patch and ball combination to speed up loading while laying low behind that log trying to load, or trying to load on the run.  Or - simply use no patch at all if danger presents itself?

So, this brings up another thought.  Who in their right mind would venture into dangerous territory with the tightest fitting patch and ball combination they can come up with?  I wouldn't...  I believe it's a trade off of giving up some accuracy for quick loading self protection follow up shots.

It's very possible that first load in the barrel is a tight fitting patch & ball for best accuracy, but what about the following loads???

So if any of this is the case, why have a coned muzzle?

Just my .02 worth.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2013, 11:17:17 PM by Candle Snuffer »
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: loading a coned barrel
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2013, 02:13:27 AM »
O.K. now you guys really have me confused. I have been led to believe that the coned muzzle is the method used in the past to load a "hunting" rifle without a short started. I personally have never seen an antique target rifle with a coned muzzle. In fact, I have seen several old target rifles that have no crown at all. Why then would you need to generate a load that is so tight that you need a coned muzzle, and a short starter to make it work? This sounds a lot like the shooters I shot with 35, or 40 years ago that had to have a short starter, and a mallet, and a rigid metal range rod, and heaven knows what else, to get their load down the barrel. This is starting to sound like its a lot more about all the junk you drag to the range, than it is actual shooting.

                    Hungry Horse

First if you shot against the people I do you would KNOW why you need a tight load. And tight is apparently in the shooters mind in many cases. For years I loaded with most people call tight loads in 50-54 calibers with no starter at all still do with one rifle.

Second most hard loading has little to do with the ball/patch fit once started but with the lube used. Lube can also effect hard starting.
Second as you point out the funneling done today as "coning" is a modern construct invented for people who, frankly, don't know how to load a round ball rifle or apparently HOW it should be loaded for best accuracy. A considerable number of the people shooting ML rifles today are re-enactors not riflemen.
Many of the old "no crown" rifles are actually crowned but in a manner that  is described in John Baird's "Hawken Rifles..." and are choked as well.

Dan
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: loading a coned barrel
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2013, 02:37:53 AM »
I see what you're saying, HH...

I don't use coned muzzles myself.  Don't even know for sure if they are truly authentic, and if so, to what time period?

Makes more sense to me that if you were hunting local in friendly territory you might just use a tight patch & ball combination.

If hunting in questionable territory where danger is always a real possibility (man or beast) you might just use a looser patch and ball combination to speed up loading while laying low behind that log trying to load, or trying to load on the run.  Or - simply use no patch at all if danger presents itself?

So, this brings up another thought.  Who in their right mind would venture into dangerous territory with the tightest fitting patch and ball combination they can come up with?  I wouldn't...  I believe it's a trade off of giving up some accuracy for quick loading self protection follow up shots.

It's very possible that first load in the barrel is a tight fitting patch & ball for best accuracy, but what about the following loads???

So if any of this is the case, why have a coned muzzle?

Just my .02 worth.

Loading a tight load is no different than a loose one if the patch lube is correct at least not for the amount shooting needed for hunting. For match shooting? I generally wipe.
The time needed to load a tight load vs a loose one is not significant. In the modern context the fastest ACCURATE reload is often something like this rather than fumbling with patch and ball and powder measure.



I can't believe these were no used in rifles back in the day. Though they are only good for 2-3 repeat shots at least if the paper is not greased. I have not tried greased paper for these.
The British used to sew the patches to the balls for the Baker rifle . Just a couple of stitches to keep it in place until loaded. They also used 2  different ball sizes one for precision use and one for rapid fire. But this is impractical.

I now and then hunt in occupied Gbear habitat and I don't change my load. I do carry a paper cartridge or two since Daryl told me about them and I tried them.

Dan
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Offline Kermit

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Re: loading a coned barrel
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2013, 02:57:34 AM »
Kermit, are you 'dissing' the "Never have to wipe all day Society"?  Ha!!

Absolutely not! I figure to each his/her own ball/patch devices. I don't have a dog in this fight, and don't want to. Each to his/her own, just so long as it doesn't involve discussion of inliners, stainless barrels, plastic stocks, pelleted propellants, saboted slugs...

 ;D :D ;D :D ;D
« Last Edit: November 11, 2013, 03:07:35 AM by Kermit »
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Offline bgf

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Re: loading a coned barrel
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2013, 03:05:26 AM »
For target shooting, I often use a short starter and a rubber mallet, plus a range rod; if I had a coned barrel that needed one or all to be comfortable, I'd use them.  The mallet isn't strictly necessary, but my hands are so messed up (various causes) that whacking the short starter is just an additional irritant I don't need most of the time.  Offhand shooting at targets in line matches is most likely not exactly authentic to the long rifle period, either, so what difference does it make?  In the woods, etc., I load with the rifle's own rod and can load my "match combination" that way, although I have adequately good shooting alternatives that load much easier. 

If the barrel isn't coned and loading is hard, I would recommend checking out Daryl's various post on slightly relieving/smoothing the muzzle crown.  It will cut down on torn patches and make tight loads fairly easy.  I don't see it causes any problems with accuracy, but I cant say I'd trust coning, which is much more radical.

necchi

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Re: loading a coned barrel
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2013, 03:15:04 AM »
This sounds a lot like the shooters I shot with 35, or 40 years ago that had to have a short starter, and a mallet, and a rigid metal range rod, and heaven knows what else, to get their load down the barrel..
Uhm,  ::)
maybe it's time to step out on the range again,,,,
Sorry, I didn't read into the topic that it was HC or PC,, I thought it was about using a short starter or not.
If Henry, Tom and Dan don't want to use a short starter,
and
Fred, Jeff and Bill do use a short starter,,

Which of the two groups is right about how John loads his, rifle?
« Last Edit: November 11, 2013, 03:17:29 AM by necchi »

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: loading a coned barrel
« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2013, 03:30:30 AM »
Either group can tell John how to load his rifle. John will likely try both ways.  Then he'll see that Fred Jeff and Bill place first second and third in the winners' circle, and that may or may not influence how he loads his own rifle.
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Offline yip

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Re: loading a coned barrel
« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2013, 04:08:47 AM »
 all replies are appreciated, I plan to erase one move from my loading procedure, and hate to not use my coned muzzle as intended, but??????????

Offline Long Ears

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Re: loading a coned barrel
« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2013, 04:20:48 AM »
And so the argument continues........... Funny how no one ever changes sides.

Offline Standing Bear

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Re: loading a coned barrel
« Reply #19 on: November 11, 2013, 07:47:19 AM »
Either group can tell John how to load his rifle. John will likely try both ways.  Then he'll see that Fred Jeff and Bill place first second and third in the winners' circle, and that may or may not influence how he loads his own rifle.


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Re: loading a coned barrel
« Reply #20 on: November 11, 2013, 02:55:28 PM »
It is a never ending discussion. I don't understand the need to eliminate a step in loading a muzzleloading rifle. One could take this to extreme and use a.470 ball in a 50 caliber, eliminate the patch, then you wouldn't even need a ramrod- eliminate another step! Of course, accuracy would suffer, but, hey, we're reenacting; who cares if you can hit anything.
     More seriously- I have been shooting muzzleloaders for over forty years- most of them .32, .36, .38 and .40 caliber. In all of them, I use a bore size ball, .017 patching lubed with saliva for match shooting and olive oil for hunting. I have always used a short starter and have never felt the need to eliminate that step in loading.
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Offline Daryl

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Re: loading a coned barrel
« Reply #21 on: November 11, 2013, 10:54:06 PM »
The use of a starter is so routine, that when I used paper ctgs. for backup loads for hunting, I had to practice using them until I stopped grabbing my starter from my bag's strap.  In my 14 bore, I found I should shoot 10 shots with paper ctgs. before I had to clean the bore. The easiest way of doing that, was to load 85gr. 2F and a spit-lubed .022" patch with the .684" ball - using the short starter to get it started and the rifle's hickory rod to send it home. Firing this effectively cleaned the bore and allowed another 10 ctg.s to be fired - which - BTW - gave identical accuracy to a tight ball and patch combination - to 100yards. The rifling actually engraved in the paper patch and the rod had to be choked up on, to get that started. Once started, a single push would seat it easily.  Including capping, aiming and rifling, they gave an 8 second reload & second shot.

No cone!

LB had a coned barrel - on his first .40 rifle. I gave him some of the .400" pure lead round balls (Lyman mould) that I was using and even with a starter, he had a LOT of trouble starting and loading them- indeed, complained about it.  I assume his difficulty loading was due to the long tapered angle of his coned muzzle.

 A long gentle taper is not the correct shape for the "drawing" process of forming the ball and patch into the rifling.  Corbin shows this very aspect of cold forming tapered and angles in their written documentation on the physics of what is required for the drawing of metals.  Those .400" balls  were quite easily and still are quite easily loaded in my non-coned .40 barrel- with it's short radius'd crown.

Related directly to this subject of drawing angles, was a die I modified for reducing .375" bullets to .366" bullets. I used a commercial ctg. sizing die with long gentle taper that produced the end result I required - changing a .375 bullet to a .366" bullet- however the pressure needed was too much for the compound bench press I was using - indeed, I was afraid the die itself would explode, it took so much pressure to operate.  I read Corbin's literature then used a reamer I had, to introduce a shorter, 45 degree, finishing in a very short 3 degree section from the .375" measurement to .365" measurement.  This 'tiny' alteration made a huge difference in the pressure required to 'draw' the .375's down to .366" (.001" spring-back), indeed, no more pressure than FL sizing a magnum ctg. in that press. That was a huge difference and merely the length of the step-down made the difference. thus, I could now use cheap, easy to find .375's in my European 9.3 rifles.

What has this to do with coned muzzles vs. crowned ones?   The angle of the crown makes ALL the difference. If too long a taper - the effort required is actually increased over that needed for the short angle - ie: crowning as "WE" now use.

I freely admit that a loose combination might be more easily loaded in a coned muzzle- maybe - but a tight combination that needs a starter (easier on the rifle's wrist), is more easily loaded if the angles are shorter.

imho, of course.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2013, 10:57:39 PM by Daryl »
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Vomitus

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Re: loading a coned barrel
« Reply #22 on: November 12, 2013, 01:04:40 AM »
...Daryls,
   My latter "Packdog" rifle is coned too, but only about a 1/2 inch. With a .020 patch,.395RB, I still use a starter and precuts.I find cutting at the muzzle with a cone a PITA. Takes some effort to load tight,but the end results are favorable. Daryls, I told you, we should've kept this a secret. Imagine the ass we could kick in competitions down in Yangeze land? Oh well,the cats outta the bag. Now all these southern miscreants can shoot good too,$#@*!

Offline Daryl

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Re: loading a coned barrel
« Reply #23 on: November 12, 2013, 08:13:51 PM »
True - LB - but only IF they weren't stuck on thumbing the ball into the muzzle & HAVING to wipe every shot due to fouling buildup.
Daryl

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Offline WadePatton

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Re: loading a coned barrel
« Reply #24 on: November 15, 2013, 06:26:21 PM »
The use of a starter is so routine...

Related directly to this subject of drawing angles, ... The angle of the crown makes ALL the difference. If too long a taper - the effort required is actually increased over that needed for the short angle - ie: crowning as "WE" now use.

... but a tight combination that needs a starter ..., is more easily loaded if the angles are shorter.

imho, of course.
this is good information.  thanks
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