The ebay E. Tenn Rifle! Continued!

[JTR]

Here's the pieces put together! Not finished by a long shot, just the pieces fitted together as I received them. The lock screw and the forward tang screw are just temporary to hold it together for now.

Notice the warp in the forearm in the last couple of pictures!

As noted in the ebay ad, the only marks on it are the letters WR stamped into the end of the percussion drum. If the rifle was ever a flint, WR might have been the guy to do the percussion conversion? Anyone have an idea of just who WR might have been?

The trigger guard and triggers are nicely made, and might hint at a maker.

Also the muzzle has distinctive punch marks on it and might be a hint as well.

I don't have much reference material, or knowledge on these southern rifles, so any help as to what, where or made by who would sure be appreciated!

John

[GrampaJack]

John, tis a great thing you have done to save the old girl.  What great lines.  My guess is that, once the job is done, you will have a very reasonable amount of cash in it.  I'll bet that some gentile coaxing over a long period of time will put that forearm right back where it's supposed to be.  Well done Sir!  Jack

[Dennis Glazener]

Sure looks like it was a flint to me!
Dennis

[bgf]

E-Bay!!!  WR: according to Noble v. 1, "James Rice had a brother and a son, both named William.  Both signed their rifles "W.R."."   ...Maybe one of them did the conversion.

It does look like a late flint converted to percussion.  The triggerguard looks to me to be an "earlier" style compared to many "Tennessee" rifles, also.  That plus the decorated muzzle is pretty interesting.

That is probably the most exciting rifle I've seen in a while (due to the period it appears to belong to being under-represented), and you found it on the bay???  If you paid $50 dollars for it, I'm going to be a little sick !

[Levy]

JTR, It sure is good to see it all back together again.  She has some nice lines.  I feel good now having gotten the two of you together.

James Levy

[mountainman70]

All I can say is "Well,Good,y'all" Jim,thanks for posting these pics.This ol feller already has a history with you and us.It would do good to document all this drama.The walnut blank I have is sawed to similar outline,with a 7/8 barrel channel.I really like the lines.Congrats on your labor of love.Dave

[tallbear]

John

Thanks for saving this one.It certainly deserved to be rescued!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's hard to tell from the pic but is there a buttplate minus an extension??

Mitch

[Hungry Horse]

 My two cents goes something like this. The lock doesn't appear to be original to this gun. The hammer is an old cartridge shotgun hammer. The break in the stock, seems to be from the original lock unloaded its mainspring through the bottom the gun, possibly from a broken tumbler.
 I love the lines of this gun, and the frugal hardware, has a certain charm.
 I had a 1803 Harpers Ferry replica that unloaded its mainspring in a similar manner, and did similar damage.

                  Hungry Horse

[JTR]

Thank you guys! Back together just as it is, the rifle has a very comfortable in the hands, long and actually very slender! The gun was definitely made by someone with a lot of experience, because as you guys have noted, it has very nice lines and architecture. Also the metal work, trigger guard, triggers, tang, are very nicely done, as are the muzzle marks.

I agree with Dennis that it was originally flint. The recess in the wood behind the hammer was deliberately cut, and although rough now, hasn't just been broken out from use/abuse.

The lock isn't original to the gun, but at this point makes little difference, and there's nothing that can be done about that now anyway. Same with the hammer. Both are going to stay although I might do a little 'fitting' to the lock plate/ drum area. Personally, I don't see any reason the reconvert this one back to a flint, and loose the WR work.
No doubt the wood shattering below the lock was due to a broken main spring or lock part. That'll need to be sympathetically replaced, as well as the long piece up at the end of the barrel.

Jack, the warp has been responding nicely to some continued pressure and only has about 1/4 of an inch to go now. I still need to work on the cock-eyed warp right at the muzzle, but I get that too.

bgf, Thanks for the info on W.R.! Do the Jerry Noble books have any pictures of WR marked rifles? Like I mentioned, I don't have much knowledge of the southern rifles so any help would be greatly appreciated.
The gun was bought off ebay! Someone, maybe James Levy posted about it being on there, and it was being sold in parts, to get around the ebay restriction of selling complete guns. The first two auctions were for the stock and barrel, and I won those. The next two auctions were for the trigger guard and triggers, and although I tried my best, was outbid on both.... The last auction was the lock, and I won that.
Then James Levy said he knew the guy that had won both the trigger guard and triggers, and that he was interested in selling them. Long story short, thanks to James, I ended up with all the parts, but not at what you'd call a bargain basement price! All told I think it was about $1250-ish, but all the parts are together now and will stay that way! There's a thread in this section someplace about the gun being on ebay.  

Mitch, it was made without a buttplate, and the bare wood has held up remarkably well! No RR entry pipe or muzzle cap either.  

Dave, The barrel on this one is 41" long, gently swamped, about mid-30 caliber. The breech is about 15/16", the waist about 13/16", and the muzzle about 7/8". If you'd like some closer measurements, I'll be happy to get them for you.
By the way, the barrel has about 1 1/2" of 'something' in it back at the breech! and it doesn't seem to be dirt or rust,,,,,,,

As I mentioned at the top, if anyone has any ideas as to maker, area, or whatever, I'd be happy to hear about it!
John
 

[mountainman70]

I will eventually get "John" in my brain instead of Jim.I knows a heap of Johns.Must be gettin like my late granma,when all 5 of us heathen were at her house,she would "call the roll" before she got the right one of us .Same with the switchin,too.
I really like this old feller.I am curious as to the LOP,and the drop at heel.Looks like 4" or so.Thanks.Dave

[JTR]

Dave, The LOP from the forward trigger is right at 14 1/4". Drop at the heel is 4".
John

[bgf]

JTR,
I don't think there are any "W.R." rifles shown in Noble.  This one doesn't look like a Rice rifle (several of those are shown) at all to me, anyway, although it almost certainly wasn't built so far away from where they worked that one couldn't have done the conversion.  Esp. in light of the abbreviated furniture, the stock work and the TG are exceptionally well done.  I wish I had a clue as to who built it!

My immediate first impression was Western NC (look through the App. School section of Ivey to see why), based on the TG and the way the butt "plate" is carved (esp. the toe area), and the tang wouldn't be out of place there either.  Anywhere adjacent, however, is a possibility, and there are some definite [upper] E.Tn. characteristics to the the comb and cheekpiece, although those characteristics aren't unknown elsewhere either. 

Wish I could help more.  Dennis and G-man, along with others are FAR more expert on these than I.

I assume you are going to restore it "sensitively" based on what you've done in the past -- can't wait to see how it turns out!

[Eric Krewson]

On page 16 of John Rice Erwin's book "Guns and Gunmaking tools of Southern Appalachia" there is a rifle pictured that looks very similar to the ebay rifle. The rifle pictured is attributed to James Rice.

[JB2]

I missed the earlier thread about this auction, but really glad you were able to get this rifle back together.  Really love the lines.  Almost Unicoi county, later Beal looking?  Not quite Soddy-Daisy, but not far from it either.  Very interesting.  I'm sure the 2 Guys will have some greater insight.  Looking forward to seeing how she turns out.  It's certainly giving me more reason to go more 'poorboy' on my little .32.

[Sequatchie Rifle]

It speaks "Haywood County, NC" to me. I think the triggerguard and muzzle decoration are good clues, but the tang throws me.  The tang is very Unicoi and Washington Couty, Tennessee. This rifle has superb achitecture. I'm pleased to get to see it all together.  I was watching it on ebay until the prices went "thermonuclear".

[Dennis Glazener]

It speaks "Haywood County, NC" to me.

Bill,
Curious about why you think Haywood County. Not saying it isn't since I am not familiar with rifles from that county but am interested since Haywood is adjacent to and just over the mountain from where my Gillespie families lived. I do see a few Gillespie characteristics on that rifle but I don't believe its one of theirs.
Dennis

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Hmm.. not gonna heat tat breech to loosen the plug, eh??  

It will be beautiful when you finish!!

[JTR]

Thank you guys for all the good info and possibilities to research!
It seems like this rifle has enough distinctive touches to it that a maker should be able to be found,,, but, I've said that about PA rifles more times than I like to think about and no maker was ever found. None the less, I'll follow up on everything I can, until I run out of leads.
Dennis, thanks for thoughts, much appreciated!

Here's a couple pictures of the trigger assembly. Since these pictures were taken, a little steel wool and wd-40 have helped to knock most of the loose rust off up in the works area. Notice the two threaded holes at either end of the trigger plate. Even though the front of the trigger plate fits into the recess at the front of the trigger guard, the plate is actually held in place in the stock with the two tang screws screwing into the front and rear of the plate.





Tim,  yep, no, no heat on the barrel to help loosen the tang. If it is loaded, it'd be kind of cool to try to save the load, and put it in a clear plastic tube or something.

John

[Sequatchie Rifle]

Dennis, to address your question, I recall seeing a rifle from the other side of the mountains at the last Tenneessee Rifle Show in Norris that had an almost perfectly matched profile, especially the comb.  It also had an odd triggerguard like this one.

[RAT]

It would appear that the ramrod thimble is not pinned to the stock. David Rase recently made a composite Gillespie rifle (features taken from several guns) where the tabs of the thimble extended up and were folded over into the barrel channel to secure the thimble in place. How is the thimble fastened on this rifle? Can we get a picture from inside the barrel channel?

[Levy]

A few years back, Billy Harkins and I looked at a local Gillespie rifle in Blairsville, GA that had ramrod pipes that weren't pinned, but up into the barrel channel and folded over.  I've seen this trait on many muskets from 1733 shipwrecks and earlier.  I also saw it on a Carolina Gun recovered from the Suwannee River in 2005 that was 1745 or earlier (signed Williams on the lock).

James Levy

[JTR]

Correct, there's no pin holding the ramrod thimble in place. Here's a picture of it where it's folded over into the inside of the barrel channel. The diagonal cut ends point toward the muzzle.
I've received some pictures via email showing some similarities to Gilespie's, but there's several non-similarities as well.
Thanks for the help on this rifle! It's much appreciated.
John

James, do you live near Blairsville?

[Levy]

I live in Tallahassee, FL and Billy Harkins lived in Blairsville, GA.  He has since married and moved to Hiwassee, GA.

James Levy

[JTR]

I dug up this old thread, and Dennis was kind enough to revive the pictures, so I could finish the story of Ol’ Ebay, finally.

It ended up taking quite some time to get the warp out of the stock, and stay straight, more or less, without twisting. I figured there was no use fitting and gluing back in the few pieces of missing wood if the stock was continuing to warp, and just pop them loose again.
So anyway, here’s the finished result. I shaped some wood for the missing chunk along the forearm, fitted it and glued it in. I didn’t try to fit it back in exactly, but tried to make it look something like the original piece had been put back in, minus a few splinters and such. My thought hare were that if the forearm started to warp again, if the wood wasn’t a super close fit maybe the glue would shift a bit with the warp and the piece would stay attached. Or so was my thinking and time will tell.
The busted out wood under the lock was simply replaced, and made to look like the other side. The lock that came with the gun wasn’t original to it, nor was it even a decent fit, so I hunted through my pile of old parts for a reasonable replacement. Good luck there! I have a lot of original percussion, and some flint lock plates and parts, but nothing wanted to just drop right in. ( Like That’s ever going to happen!) Beyond finding a plate to fit, despite having a bunch internal parts, I didn’t have a set that would work together without a bunch of modifying. So in the end, I found a plate that was too large, but had screw holes that would mostly work with some of the modern internal lock parts I have. For whatever reason, maybe just me, I wanted the lock / trigger assembly to function and actually work. So after some fiddling/filing, I got the lock plate to fit well enough, the new internals to agree to function, and a not great, but reasonable hammer, that actually hits the nipple! Actually, the old nipple is nothing but a shadow of its former self, but I tried some caps on it and it pops them with ease. And the set triggers work as expected. So the WR flint to percussion conversion barrel work is still totally intact.
As for the original maker, over the years since the original posts, several knowledgeable guys have independently told me they think Joseph Whitson is likely the guy. I’ve found a few pictures of Whitson rifles, and there are certainly similarities, so not knowing better I’ll agree on Whitson as the guy.

As for WR, on the side of the drum, on Reply # 3 bgf replied;   “WR: according to Noble v. 1, "James Rice had a brother and a son, both named William.  Both signed their rifles "W.R."."   ...Maybe one of them did the conversion.”
That’s the only hint I’ve had on those initials, so will leave it as a maybe.

So, that’s what I have. If one of you are interested in more pictures, just ask here, or in a PM and I’ll get them.
John
 
At this point, I’m tempted to shoot it! The barrel is in very good condition, the rifling is in pretty good condition, and though I never de-breeched it, I dropped a light down there and everything looks good, no rust, pitting, erosion, etc.       

[Levy]

The old girl looks super.  Did you ever clear the obstruction from the barrel? and what was in it?  Shopdog is on the ALR forum and he's the fellow that you bought the triggers and trigger guard from.  It has Whitson lines to me.  James Levy