Which Kit?

[captpete]

Hello the Forum,

I am coming back to muzzleloading after 35 years... yeah, its been a long time... and I need some coaching on how to go about building...

I need to understand who makes the best kit - best as in Value - I'm looking to build a smoothbore as well as a long rifle...  I've looked at the kits produced by Clay Smith, Cabin Creek, and Jim Chambers.  However, it appears as though one could break a C Note before they got very far along... 

Should I look at purchasing individual parts?  If so, with whom should I deal with?

Your thoughts and abuse all equally appreciated...

-- Peter

[Whaleman]

By C-note do you mean $100.00? Dan

[northup87]

One can break ample "C-Notes" to get a kit. Expect to pay from $600 - $1200 for most kits. 

[galamb]

The question is often asked "who is the best", or something to that effect - a better question would be "who to avoid".

If you stick with the major muzzle loader suppliers - Chambers, Track of the Wolf, NorthStar West, Knob Mountain, Pecatonica, MBS etc you are not likely to go wrong.

Most of their hard parts are sourced from the very suppliers you would go to if you do an "a la carte" approach.

And yes, $1000 doesn't go very far if you want something different than the $600 sidelock offerings available at Cabella's.

[Mark Elliott]

One thing to keep in mind is that "kits" aren't like model kits.    They are parts sets with a  stock that has had the barrel inlet, there ramrod hole drilled and the buttstock roughly profiled.   In other words, the hardest work has been done for you.  You still need to know how to build a gun from scratch and what the gun should look and feel like when done.   You should get the book Gunsmith of Grenville Country by Peter Alexander.    It is the closest thing to an encyclopedia of longrifle building.   It will get you started.   The next thing you should get is one of the videos on how to assemble a kit.   The reason for the video is that putting a kit together is not exactly like building a gun from scratch.   I was never one who was good a coloring inside the lines, so kits are not natural for me.   I like the freedom on building from scratch.   Kits constrain you and require a bit more precision in some areas than would be required with scratch built.  That said,  newcomers probably need a few constraints.   Most everybody started with kit of some sort just to get their feet wet.   

The good suppliers have already been mentioned.    You can also work with these folks to put your own parts set together if you have a particular rifle in mind that you would like to build.    Also don't forget the guys that inlet barrels and drill ramrod holes;  Fred Miller( Knobs Mt), and Mark Wheder (Jacks Mt).   They can inlet whatever barrels you select into whatever wood you send them and have templates for many profiles that they can cut into your butt stock.   

[smylee grouch]

When it comes to kits and guns in general quality is where the real value is. A good kit will set you back $1000.00 give or take a little. You will probably need more than the gun parts themselves to build and enjoy the sport. Consider it a long term investment. Above price would be for a longrifle with swamped barrel.

[Dennis Glazener]

One thing to keep in mind is that "kits" aren't like model kits.    They are parts sets with a  stock that has had the barrel inlet, there ramrod hole drilled and the buttstock roughly profiled.   In other words, the hardest work has been done for you.  You still need to know how to build a gun from scratch and what the gun should look and feel like when done.   You should get the book Gunsmith of Grenville Country by Peter Alexander.    It is the closest thing to an encyclopedia of longrifle building.   It will get you started.   The next thing you should get is one of the videos on how to assemble a kit.   The reason for the video is that putting a kit together is not exactly like building a gun from scratch.   I was never one who was good a coloring inside the lines, so kits are not natural for me.   I like the freedom on building from scratch.   Kits constrain you and require a bit more precision in some areas than would be required with scratch built.  That said,  newcomers probably need a few constraints.   Most everybody started with kit of some sort just to get their feet wet.   

The good suppliers have already been mentioned.    You can also work with these folks to put your own parts set together if you have a particular rifle in mind that you would like to build.    Also don't forget the guys that inlet barrels and drill ramrod holes;  Fred Miller( Knobs Mt), and Mark Wheder (Jacks Mt).   They can inlet whatever barrels you select into whatever wood you send them and have templates for many profiles that they can cut into your butt stock.   

I don't want to argue with Mark but I believe a first time builder would be far better off buying a book like Chuck Dixon's "The Art of Building the Pennsylvania Long Rifle": http://www.dixonmuzzleloading.com/images/palongrifle.jpg I have heard several new builders say that the Gunsmith of Greenville County book was too advanced for them, they would prefer something more basic. I have nothing against the Greenville County book, own one, but for a new comer I would get Chuck's book.

Also minor correction its Mark Weader with Jack's Mountain Stock Co. and Dave Keck with Knob Mountain. I don't think Fred Miller is doing any stock work since all of his shoulder surgery. Dave Keck bought most if not all of Fred's patterns.
Dennis

[captpete]

WOW!! I.am overwhelmed by the quality and number of responses in just a few hours...I'm not overly concerned about metal and woodwork as I've. Built several modern rifles from scratch.... After a career in the military, I can colour between the lines until I get enough experience to draw my own lines

I was REALLY hoping to keep these first two projects under a grand.  I'll just have to throttle back my expectations in terms of embellishments... then down the road a piece build one with a patch box, carvings, etc...

Is there a preferred gauge for a smooth bore?  I had been thinking of either 16 or 20 gauge... Are there any defining differences between makers of smooth bore barrels?  I.e. Is one brand or another known for better accuracy?

Best Regards,

-- Peter

[kaintuck]

Look and read a lot......maybe tip Curtis  name thrown in here also for parts/guns.....

Welcome to the madness!

[Stuartg]

I'd second giving Tip Curtis a call. He spent nearly an hour with me last week about my kit inquiry. After thinking everything through, I finally went with him. I hope to get the kit tomorrow or Saturday. I'll give ya an update when it arrives.

[smylee grouch]

It would also help if we knew what kind of rifle you would like to build as some could use a straight barrel and some others would be better if you used a swamped, octagon to round, or tappered barrel. Lots of other variations that could affect the price of the parts.

[galamb]

Peter, I noticed that you spelled a word or two using the "Queens English" are you outside of the US?

While it is tough to go wrong using kits/components from the (major) suppliers, as a Canadian I find sometimes it's the cost of shipping that tips things in favour of one or the other - plus there are some suppliers that just don't want to be bothered shipping outside the US  (understandable, some items I receive have two trees worth of paperwork attached).

So if that's the case there are a few of us "foreigners" on the site and can maybe steer you to suppliers that are well versed in shipping across borders.

As to your question about barrels, I like Rice, Colerain, Green Mountain and Oregon - haven't listed the others because I don't own any, but the answer would probably be the same.

Tough to go wrong with any of the current barrel makers. Sometimes it comes down to who has what available at the time you are ready to buy or who has the profile you are looking for and you don't want to wait, sometimes many months - the one man shops tend to get backed up.

[Artificer]

Is there a preferred gauge for a smooth bore?  I had been thinking of either 16 or 20 gauge... Are there any defining differences between makers of smooth bore barrels?  I.e. Is one brand or another known for better accuracy?

Best Regards,

-- Peter

Welcome aboard,

Do you want a flint or percussion smoothbore and from what time period?  Are you going to use it with shot more for trap, hunting and wing shooting or use it as often, or more so with round balls?  Do you want a smooth rifle or a trade gun or fowler?  A smooth rifle is often better for more accurate round ball shooting.  A fowler is often stocked better for using shot in hunting.  A trade gun can sort of split the difference and especially if you have a rear sight on them.  BTW trade guns go back well into the 18th century, so you would not be limited to those of the 19th century, if you don't like them.  Below are some links to just some of the styles available.  (Oh, I guess I'm showing my bias for 18th century guns. Grin.)

On this link, there is a Pennsylvania Fowler and a Smooth Rifle:
http://www.flintlocks.com/rifles03.htm

On this link, there is a New England Colonial Fowler/Militia Musket :
http://www.flintlocks.com/rifles04.htm

On this link you will find an English Officer's Fusil/Fowler:
http://www.flintlocks.com/rifles05.htm

As to gauge, 20 ga is a bore diameter of .615" and 16 ga is a bore diameter of .662".  It seems that many people go for 20 ga if they are going to shoot round balls mainly or a lot and 16 ga if they are going to use shot more.  However, 20 ga today seems more popular with many folks.  I must add, though, I can't speak with experience on either gauge as the Smoothbore I shot with both round balls and shot for years in the Northwest Trade Gun Aggregate was a .751" Brown Bess Carbine with .735" balls and 11 Ga wads and shot.  I didn't have a problem with the larger ball size, but I only fired it maybe 5 to 8 times at most in a match.  Grin.
Gus

[Artificer]

Peter, I noticed that you spelled a word or two using the "Queens English" are you outside of the US?

Not Peter, but most every time I use the words colour and favour, I just tell the spell checker to bugger off.  Grin.
Gus

[A.Merrill]

    You don't have to buy a kit. You can start out by buying a stock and barrel. Make your own under lugsand get them installed on the barrel and inlet the barrel . Then buy a lock and inlet it your self, that will save you a lot cash buy doing it your self.  Last time I noticed it cost about $100.00 more for a stock that has the lock already inletted. Just buy the parts as you need them and make some of the parts yourself. Good luck.    Al

[sweed]

Is there a preferred gauge for a smooth bore?  I had been thinking of either 16 or 20 gauge...

Captpete
  For what its worth...Been trying to get around the same question for a while.  Personally I want a duel purpose gun, both shot and PRB. Your requirements may differ. I thought .50 cal small for shot, and 20ga. large for PBR.
 I was looking hard at 28ga., but thought it was a little lite on shot. Was steered toward 24 ga. and like what I find there. 28 ga= 55 cal  24 ga = 58 cal.

The Indian Trade guns were most commonly 24 ga., maybe because it was found to be a good duel Purpose size.
Good luck with your build.

sweed

[Dan'l 1946]

  I think that the 16 bore is a great all around gun. It really comes down to what you plan to use it for. The smaller bores do make for very light guns. One of Mike's Carolina guns would be a good choice.
                             Dan

[captpete]

Just a short comment on th  use of the Queen' s English... I'm retired USAF - lived all over the world.  Then I had to get a real job  . I traveled globally - literally everywhere.  If you want to be understood, you can't speak American.  As a result, I still find myself speaking and writing the Queen' s English even five years after retiring from my corporate job... Once you've converted its hard to go back.  And it's pronounced prO next. 

For my smooth bore project - the primary intent is shooting patched round balls at targets and critters. I believe I am most interested in the trade gun style.  Star NorthWest has a version that's pleasing to the eye.  From the comments I believe I'll go with a twenty gauge.

The rifle would be a .54 -'Perhaps an early Virginia style as the butt is a little wider.  But, I am still open to suggestions.

How on earth do I make contact with the craftsmen mentioned throughout the different posts?

Best Regards,

-- Peter

[ddoyle]

First thing is to choose the barrel you want, most especially what /contour/profile you want.  They aint all equal. If you buy a TOW smoothbore you might just end up disapointed when you look down the sight plane. Don't try and save 25 or 50 dollars on a barrel! Nothing is free.

Choose the lock you want. They aint all equal. It costs money to produce a good lock. Again don't try and save a few bucks on a lock.

Choose the species and grade of wood you want.

Once (and not before) you have  decided on the above you are in a position to think on what to buy. You can also now consider how much inletting service you need to purchase.

[Larry Luck]

Peter,

I could not tell from your profile exactly where you live, but it looked like somewhere in North Carolina.

If your schedule permits, please consider visiting the Southern Longrifle Association show in Williamsburg, Virginia at the end of March.  You would have the opportunity to inspect components from several suppliers, see some interesting pieces, and have a generally goodtime.  You could also visit the Colonial Williamsburg gunsmith shop and the newly restored armory area at the Anderson site.  Shopping and other distractions are available for the distaff side of the house.

Welcome and best regards.

Larry Luck

[Dan'l 1946]

Hi Capt. In case you didn't get my reply to your message, Mike is Mike Brooks and he is on the forum. His website is fowlingguns.com. Sorry I didn't provide more info.  Dan

[captpete]

I saw a reference some where, can't quite remember where, about a guy that would carve up a blank you had.  Perhaps, one of you fine gentleman can rescue this feeble memory....

It's a four hour drive to Williamsburg -- I'll give it a flying leap as see where I land up 

-- Peter

[captpete]

Forgot to ask whether there is someone from the greater Charlotte area I could split the ride up to the CAL show... Anyone?

[smylee grouch]

There are more than one but Dave Keck of Knob Mountain Muzzleloading is one and he does a good job. I think he is on this fourm and also advertises in the classifieds of Muzzle Blasts- Muzzleloader I think.

[whitebear]

First as has been said decide what you want, then read everything you can find on that type of gun.  Ask all the questions that you think of and a lot more that you didn't think of.  I have been shooting "the holy black" for 40 years and I still frequently ask questions of this sight.  It is much cheaper to ask a question and wait a few days to
read through all the answers than to buy a new stock or barrel etc.

This group of people is the most helpful bunch that ever lived.  They want you to ask questions so that they can show off there knowledge If I can be of any help just contact me.