Horns and attached staples

[G. Elsenbeck]

I have a question for all the hornmakers out there.  When a staple is attached to the horn in the neck area, is it supposed to be used as a direct attachment for the horn strap or rather used as a 'backstop' when a strap is affixed directly to the horn?  I would think attaching a strap directly to the staple would be in danger of coming loose as in catching the tip on something.  At least IMHO using the staple as a 'backstop' would at least prevent that.  From looking at some originals from photos I see different sizes of staples used from rectangular in shape to a smallish round style.  Any thoughts?

[Randy Hedden]

Gary,

I don't believe the staple in the throat of a horn was meant for direct attachment of a strap, but I also don't believe it is because the staple might get pulled out if the tip caught on something. The staple in the throat is installed and then the legs of the staple are bent over inside the horn. Not much chance of being pulled out although it could become a little loose. For the staple to come out it would have to take a good portion of horn with it as it is in an area where the horn is thickest.

I think that the staple in the throat is installed in such a manner that when it is used to capture the strap it serves to orient the way the horn rides against the body. At least that is what I do with the throat staples.

Randy Hedden

www.harddogrifles.com

[G. Elsenbeck]

Randy, I was under the impression that there's the school of thought to keep the metal (at least steel) from penetrating all the way through the horn when it comes to staples.  I know brass was also used on occasion for staples and I wouldn't think it to be a problem.  Then again, how in the world would one get at the staple ends to bend them over especially on double curve horns?
Gary

[David Rase]

From all I have researched I am in agreement with Randy.  The staple penetrates the horn and is bent over.  It is also not used for carrying the horn, it only keeps the strap in place.
DMR

[Jerry V Lape]

I too wonder how the staple is secured when there is a curved interior at the area the staple enters.  I have even thought maybe the staples go all the way through the horne and are turned on the outside opposite.  Please enlighten me as I would like to use one on the next horn I build. 

[G. Elsenbeck]

Wouldn't there be somewhat of a hazard with the staple coming into contact with the powder?  Maybe some our restoration experts can enlighten us.
Gary

[keweenaw]

Accord to Art DeCamp, on the York and Philadelphia screw tips horns, the staples are always bent over.  On those horns the staple is pretty close to the tip and one runs a rod down the throat and bends them over.  They need to be made of soft material.  When I bought my last York horn from Art I asked him about attaching directly to the staple as opposed to using it for a keeper with the strap around the horn.  He said that on all the original screw tip horns of that general type which he has examined he's seen no evidence that the strap went around the horn and thinks the appropriate thing to do is to attach the strap directly to the staple.  What might be appropriate to do on other styles of horns with a staple on the throat is another matter.

Tom

[Randy Hedden]

On a horn with a staple near the spout end I just use a long bent rod to go through the spout hole and bed the legs of the staple over. They don't necesarily have to be bent all the way over at a 90 degree angle. any bend in the two legs will secure the staple to the horn.

Some of the Pennsylvania screw tip horns have a hollowed out butt plug and the staple has long legs that penetrate through the whole thickness of the butt plug and are bent over on the inside of the butt plug before it is installed on the horn.

I can't imagine any serious consequences of having the staple legs penetrate to the inside of the horn. If there are any consequences it doesn't seem that the early horn makers gave it any mind.

Randy Hedden

www.harddogrifles.com

[Randy Hedden]

I too wonder how the staple is secured when there is a curved interior at the area the staple enters.  I have even thought maybe the staples go all the way through the horne and are turned on the outside opposite.  Please enlighten me as I would like to use one on the next horn I build. 

Jerry,

I have never seen a horn with a staple that went all the way through the horn and exited on the opposite side if the horn. Such a practice wouldn't be necessary as it is not much of a job to bend over the staple legs inside the horn.

Randy Hedden

www.harddogrifles.com

[G. Elsenbeck]

From what I can gather, with a York county style screwtip, where the threads are external, it shouldn't be a problem using a rod of some sort to bend over the staples.  On the other hand, I would think using a rod to bend the staples on internal threads one would have to take care not to ruin the threads.  Or, in this particular style they didn't bother to have them go all the way through the horn? 
I remember reading somewhere that to install the staples in the neck area one should use a drill bit slightly undersized taking care not to go all the way through the horn and then hammer home the staples.  Either way interesting conversation.  I want to thank all that have participated.  The information, as always, is well received.
Gary

[Tim Crosby]

  I have bent staples over using a straight or curved rod, sometimes flattented slightly, from the end it is easiest to get to. Most of the time I make the staple square for it's entire length, then cut two or three small barbs on both legs on the square edges. (Like a fish hook) Drill  holes smaller that the staple and drive them in. I have tried to pull them out with a pair of pliers or prying them out with the tip of a screwdriver with no luck. May do be HC but it works.

Tim C.

[keweenaw]

On a Philadelphia screw tip, with internal threads, the staple goes into the throat behind the threaded recess so there is no more danger of damaging the threads there than on one with external threads.  If anything it should be easier as the staple is closer to the end of the small hole.

Tom

[G. Elsenbeck]

Tom, good point and timely as I'm looking to do an internal style shortly.

[G. Elsenbeck]

Okay guys, I've taken all the info and tips and this is what I came up with for this particular horn.  It has a nice sleepy double curve considering its size and awful nice coloring.  It is light and mostly translucent.  Putting the staples all the way through and 'knocking them down' gave a nice tight fit and when she was all done it's still airtight.  It's a horn I was putting with a day pouch that will show up on ebay soon.  Enjoy.

[george kevil]

Gary,
That's a nice little horn .Why put it on EBAY? Why not put it here
here?
George

[G. Elsenbeck]

Gee George, my bad, I didn't think of it?  I'm so used to throwing things on
Ebay that I didn't think of the forum.  Though from now on I'd probably get more of a response posting items here.  I will have to give that some thought.  Anyone see alot of bison horn screwtips?