Hawken Trigger Guard

[iloco]

I see pictures of Contemporary made Half Stock Hawkens where a few have the flat type of trigger guard.  Were these on original Half Stock rifles.
 Sorry but I don't have any of the books on old original Hawken rifles.  hoping some of you can answer my question.  This has been bugging me for a few days now.  

[smylee grouch]

Iloco, do you mean flat to the wrist, flat in cross section of the bow/grip rail, or something else?

[iloco]

Here is a link to the type I am refering to.  Was this used on later Half Stock Original Hawken rifles.

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/928/1/TG-HAWK-N-I

[Longknife]

Here is the flat to the wrist guard used on the full stock "Kennet Hawken" by S. Hawken made after 1849....


http://www.wrtcleather.com/1-ckd/firearms-hawken/hawken-ozarks-1.jpg

http://www.wrtcleather.com/1-ckd/firearms-hawken/hawken-ozarks-2.jpg

[iloco]

Here is the flat to the wrist guard used on the full stock "Kennet Hawken" by S. Hawken made after 1849....


http://www.wrtcleather.com/1-ckd/firearms-hawken/hawken-ozarks-1.jpg

http://www.wrtcleather.com/1-ckd/firearms-hawken/hawken-ozarks-2.jpg

I am wanting to know if any were used on later Halfstock Hawkens.

[Dphariss]

Even an early rifle like the "Petersen" rifle has the "high" TG.
The "Hoffman and Campbell" in Baird's "Hawken Rifles..." has a flat guard. Its likely 1840s.
The Mariano Modena rifle has a nearly flat guard.
Then there is the 1/2 stock rifle pictured on plate 3 of Bairds book with a flat guard. Its marked Hawken. But you need to read the text. There are FS rifles with both types and 1/2 stock rifles with both types.
You need to do your research and not rely on others to do it for you then pass on the info.
The books are out there, Baird's "Hawken Rifles the Mountain Man's Choice" while a little off in some details does have good info on the rifles themselves. If you are going to try to make a Hawken you need this book (and really several more) BEFORE you start buying parts.

Dan

[iloco]

Even an early rifle like the "Petersen" rifle has the "high" TG.
The "Hoffman and Campbell" in Baird's "Hawken Rifles..." has a flat guard. Its likely 1840s.
The Mariano Modena rifle has a nearly flat guard.
Then there is the 1/2 stock rifle pictured on plate 3 of Bairds book with a flat guard. Its marked Hawken. But you need to read the text. There are FS rifles with both types and 1/2 stock rifles with both types.
You need to do your research and not rely on others to do it for you then pass on the info.
The books are out there, Baird's "Hawken Rifles the Mountain Man's Choice" while a little off in some details does have good info on the rifles themselves. If you are going to try to make a Hawken you need this book (and really several more) BEFORE you start buying parts.

Dan

What good is a forum if a person can not ask a question.  I said I do not have any of the Hawken books.
 Am I wrong in asking a question I do not know the answer to.  Anyway thanks for the information you gave.

I don't have any intentions of building a rifle.  Getting to old to get started.  I like to buy or trade for already built rifles.

[rsells]

I took some photographs of a Hawken at the Museum of the Fur Trade that was a half stock with a flat grip rail on the triggerguard.  To the best of my memory, it was marked J&S Hawken, but I am not for sure.  There is a great looking half stock in the book "Hawken Rifles the Mountain Man's choice" that has a flat grip rail.  The info says it was just marked Hawken.
                                                              Roger Sells

[iloco]

I took some photographs of a Hawken at the Museum of the Fur Trade that was a half stock with a flat grip rail on the triggerguard.  To the best of my memory, it was marked J&S Hawken, but I am not for sure.  There is a great looking half stock in the book "Hawken Rifles the Mountain Man's choice" that has a flat grip rail.  The info says it was just marked Hawken.
                                                              Roger Sells

Now my question has been answered.  Thanks
I had been seeing some newly built Halfstock Hawken with the flat trigger guard and was curious if this was period correct.  I like the flat trigger guard that is on my John Bergmann Fullstock Hawken.

[Dphariss]

Even an early rifle like the "Petersen" rifle has the "high" TG.
The "Hoffman and Campbell" in Baird's "Hawken Rifles..." has a flat guard. Its likely 1840s.
The Mariano Modena rifle has a nearly flat guard.
Then there is the 1/2 stock rifle pictured on plate 3 of Bairds book with a flat guard. Its marked Hawken. But you need to read the text. There are FS rifles with both types and 1/2 stock rifles with both types.
You need to do your research and not rely on others to do it for you then pass on the info.
The books are out there, Baird's "Hawken Rifles the Mountain Man's Choice" while a little off in some details does have good info on the rifles themselves. If you are going to try to make a Hawken you need this book (and really several more) BEFORE you start buying parts.

Dan

What good is a forum if a person can not ask a question.  I said I do not have any of the Hawken books.
 Am I wrong in asking a question I do not know the answer to.  Anyway thanks for the information you gave.

I don't have any intentions of building a rifle.  Getting to old to get started.  I like to buy or trade for already built rifles.

My point is that is you are interested in Hawken rifles then you need references. If you had the references I would not have to go to the book case, dig out books look things up then type an answer. Not that I greatly mind. However, by relying on others people get short changed in the information they get.

Dan

[Chuck Burrows]

I took some photographs of a Hawken at the Museum of the Fur Trade that was a half stock with a flat grip rail on the triggerguard.  To the best of my memory, it was marked J&S Hawken, but I am not for sure. Roger Sells

here's the rifle at the MOFT that Roger is referring to
http://www.furtrade.org/wp-content/gallery/firearms/Hawken-PICT6132-copy.jpg

An 1840's era J & S Hawken with flat to the wrist guard...

[iloco]

I took some photographs of a Hawken at the Museum of the Fur Trade that was a half stock with a flat grip rail on the triggerguard.  To the best of my memory, it was marked J&S Hawken, but I am not for sure. Roger Sells

here's the rifle at the MOFT that Roger is referring to
http://www.furtrade.org/wp-content/gallery/firearms/Hawken-PICT6132-copy.jpg

An 1840's era J & S Hawken with flat to the wrist guard...

Thanks Chuck.  It seems there are lots of varations on Hawken Rifles.  I guess no two were the exacct same.

[Old Ford2]

Most of the gun makers of years past made particular style of rifle, that was their style. Today that particular style is identified to that maker.
However each and every gun was marginally different, because each piece was hand made. Today as it was then, as a gun maker became more proficient the method of manufacture changed to the better ( in his eyes )
Also hardware availability also changed the exact contour of the gun. Some gun makers made all pieces of the gun, where as many pieces were purchased from a supplier.
All of these variables troubles us today as to why and how a style of a gun evolved.
Fred

[smylee grouch]

I think the rifle Chuck refered to at Chadron used to belong to one of my fellow Dakota Territory Gun Colectors members, Kenny Leonard. He had a large assortment of Hawken guns and the one in question IMHO was the best Hawken ever made. There are many more in Jim Gordons books and at his museum if you ever get over that way.