H Rupp Barrel dimensions

[smallpatch]

I've got some of the parts together for a copy of RCA #57, Herman Rupp 1793.

We all know the gun.

Here's my question.  The barrel is described as "octagonal smoothbore barrel, 471/2" long, .61 caliber.

According to EK, that barrel is only 1" @ breech.
I'd like to have something made as close to this as possible.  I KNOW!!  No one today is going to make that barrel.

I have  barrel maker that is willing to go up to .54 smoothbore, but I need some additional dimensions.

I'm assuming it's swamped.  Has anyone out there had the opportunity to handle, or get dimensions off this gun?

Maybe Allen Martin, or Eric Kettenburg?

[Eric Kettenburg]

I would say 'approximate' one inch at the breech as I didn't have calipers to measure it so going by eyeball.  It is surely not big and overall very light because of that big - I personally assume later - hole down the middle.  Going by memory only, and it's been a few years now, marginally swamped, not what we usually think of today re: for example a 44" commercial barrel w/ the huge muzzle flare.  My general impression is a very long, slender, petite, light gun.  Not much "mass."

[lew wetzel]

dane,as you know i am starting the very same rifle,i have a nice maple blank i got from jim kibler and got my buttplate and t.quard from reaves.did you get a patchbox yet.i looked at totw,s p.box,s and they have a h.rupp but it doesnt have a domed lid like the original.do you or anybody else know where to get one.i was hoping to have it done in time for dixons this year but will probably have to wait till 2010 at the rate im going.will be the first rifle entered at a show for judging.so i want to make sure she is all that.....

[t.caster]

Lew, Dixon's judges would prefer you use a homemade/handmade patchbox I am sure. But I have a Rupp brass domed lid pb, I could part with if you are still interested.

[Levy]

Smallpatch, I assume from what you say that you don't think you can get a barrel made like that.  I don't really know why not.  I've purchased modern made trade gun barrels (about 1" at the breech) that were 20 ga. (.62 cal.).  Some years back, I bought some .62 cal., 1" diameter octagonal barrels from Jerry Cunningham.  I would think that maybe Ed Rayl or Getz could make you one.

James Levy

[jerrywh]

Is that a rifled barrel??

[omark]

i know that theyre out of business now, but i shoot a rifled 1" x 62 cal made by GRRW. my cousin shoots one made by sharon. we dont shoot over 100 gr 2f, but dont see the need to go any heavier, anyway.

[Eric Kettenburg]

Does anyone REALLY want to shoot a .60 - .62 cal arm of that weight, size and comb/cheek style?!!!!

I'll supply the icepack.

[smallpatch]

So far,  I've been able to get one barrel maker to commit to a 46" smoothbore in .54 .  I'd like to have a 48", but not sure who can make one.

Eric,  so basically the barrel is just slightly tapered, and flared back to just under that 1" breech??

Lew,  I'm still holding on to (very zealously) a cast brass box, that I got from Mr Kettenburg a couple of years ago.  But you can buy a sheet metal domed lid from MBS.

Levy,  from what I've seen so far, no commercial barrel maker, will make that barrel.  I'm sure for liability reasons.

I think if I could find someone to make the .48" barrel in a .54 or .58, I'd go for it.

I'll keep searching.

Eric,  I"m with you, .61 cal, 7lb gun, a real cheek smacker.

[rich pierce]

Won't kick worse than the old 12 ga single barrel break-open shotguns.  Iver Johnson was a cruel man.  Sears and Roebuck the same.

I am sure you can get a 20 ga that long in a 1" configuration.

[Tony Clark]

So far,  I've been able to get one barrel maker to commit to a 46" smoothbore in .54 .  I'd like to have a 48", but not sure who can make one.
Levy,  from what I've seen so far, no commercial barrel maker, will make that barrel.  I'm sure for liability reasons.

Smallpatch, I had the about the same experience awhile back. In my case though I needed a .50 rifled,1" breech & 15/16"muzzle w/ very slight swamp. I only found one barrelmaker who said they could make it for me, key word 'could', I didn't care to wait though and could find those dimensions with a slightly larger than 1" breech which I got and just took a little off the breech myself to keep the gun the same as the original I had looked at and measured. Regards, TC

[Dphariss]

I've got some of the parts together for a copy of RCA #57, Herman Rupp 1793.

We all know the gun.

Here's my question.  The barrel is described as "octagonal smoothbore barrel, 471/2" long, .61 caliber.

According to EK, that barrel is only 1" @ breech.
I'd like to have something made as close to this as possible.  I KNOW!!  No one today is going to make that barrel.

I have  barrel maker that is willing to go up to .54 smoothbore, but I need some additional dimensions.

I'm assuming it's swamped.  Has anyone out there had the opportunity to handle, or get dimensions off this gun?

Maybe Allen Martin, or Eric Kettenburg?

Probably state a "discussion" but it needs to be said anyway.
The chances of that rifle being originally made in that configuration are slim being made as a 50 cal is slim. In all likelyhood it was a 40-45 caliber rifle when new. Though smooth rifle is an option. But personally I doubt they were as popular as some would like us to believe. I can't see spending the money to have a gun of this expense made as a shotgun when a musket or fusil could be had cheaper and do the same thing. It makes no sense. What does make sense is having it bored for shot for some kid to hunt with when the head of the household either had no interest in shooting or had a Winchester or some other rifle that he used. The ML had basically become something useless so they bored it and let the kid have it. Boring was likely cheaper than recutting the rifling. Had it already been recut a time or two or three it was probably too big for the kid to shoot squirrels with with a RB.
Yeah I know but its simply impossible for the number of rifles in Kindigs book to have been made as smooth rifles originally or to represent the original ratio of smooth to rifled. Unless we are to believe that 1/2 to 2/3 of Morgan's riflemen had smooth rifles. Which I doubt.

Its pretty obvious that a large number of rifles were bored for shot in the past, probably sometime between 1830 and 1880. Boring rifle muskets as a business at one time and I have heard accounts of men with boring machines in wagons going around boring Civil War veterans mini ball rifles into shotguns. One of my uncles by marriage had a near mint Colt rifle musket that was bored smooth. The minie rifle was about useless for a civilian in the east in the 1870s or in the west so far as that goes. I suspect they bored anything that they could get people to pay for.

Dan

[Dphariss]

Does anyone REALLY want to shoot a .60 - .62 cal arm of that weight, size and comb/cheek style?!!!!

I'll supply the icepack.

BINGO.... Glad SOMEONE else has figured this out.

Dan

[Dphariss]

Won't kick worse than the old 12 ga single barrel break-open shotguns.  Iver Johnson was a cruel man.  Sears and Roebuck the same.

I am sure you can get a 20 ga that long in a 1" configuration.

Ever shoot a Stevens 16 with a plastic stock. What fun. But at least the basic stock design was good.
Neighbor had one that we all shot, once, when I was about 15-17. I don't remember seeing it again....
Dan

[lew wetzel]

here we go!!!so in order to recreate this rifle historically correct it is almost imposible.....so if you built it according to the rca listing and you entered it in a builders fair how could the judges judge it accurately......i believe also it was rifled when built by h.rupp and probably bored smooth at a later date but it would sure be nice to have the documentation from rupp himself on what caliber it actually was.there are other rupp rifles out there and im sure they are rifled and have known bore sizes,so is it to hard to speculate what the rifled bore diameter would have been and how close can we get to being historically accurate?

[tallbear]

Lew
I really don't think the judges at Dixons will take points away for having a diifernt caliber or if it's rifled or not!!!With that barrel size I would drop it down to .50 cal and have a rifle that's pleasant to shoot.No sence in putting all that work into a gun and hate shooting it.I have a Getz standard lite barrel it's 45 1/2".50 cal thats 15/16+ at the breech that is pretty sweet.John's standard lite barrels have less taper and flair then some of the patterns out there which is what I think you are looking for!!

Mitch

[LynnC]

TB - That Getz "Standard Lite" barrel sounds great.  Do you or anyone know how to get a Getz catalogue & how much?  I'll send the money if I can just get a hold of one.  Thanks............................Lynn

[tallbear]

Lynn
John Getz's # is 570-658-7263.The standard lite isn't listed in his catalouge I  belive it was a pattern from the old Paris barrel company.John runs them in a couple of lenths and cal.Also John doesnt usually stock barrels as he's always behind so sometime it can mean a bit off a wait.

Mitch

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I know where you're coming from when you want to make it just like the original, but don't get too stuck on the details like the calibre, when the architecture, craftsmanship, carving and engraving are what the judges are looking for.   As a case in point, I built this rifle for a friend in Nanaimo BC, a beaver trapper who was going to subject the rifle to strenuous use.  He wanted a .45 cal. so that's what we built.  And the barrel was 1" at the breech, a Getz gentle swamp 45 1/2" long - yeah, two inches short.  The point is - going in blind - this rifle won three ribbons at Dixon's in '07 and I was dumbfounded.  I lost points for a chip that came out when I was trying to scrape some finish out of the patch box cavity, and not inletting the forward extension of the trigger guard deeply enough.

Here's the box I used...it's MBS's Rupp box, but I want to let you know, I'll need some work around the domed lid.  The outline is almost perfect though.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

...and this is a photo of the original.

[Tony Clark]

I would imagine that any barrel that let you maintain the correct height/width/taper of the gun at the tail of the lock panels would allow for correct shaping of the wrist & butt. I agree with those who say it doesn't have to be the exact barrel. I would Just keep it long, slender, light, petite.... Regards, TC

[t.caster]

D.Taylor, looks like the MBS has the correct hinge lobes and I am assuming by your comment...you had to reshape the dome some to get the bullet nose shape.
Here is an old one I have in stock, that is kind of generic but the finial is right on. I usually make my own because the ones you buy are usually the wrong size.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Tom, at the risk of stealing this thread, the MBS box is so close to exact size, it was not worth making one from scratch for this project.  I simply filed the box dome to sharpen the edges and the nose.
Before and after...

[lew wetzel]

taylor,i just love seeing that rifle.i am going to start shoppingf for a barrel and will probably go with a 50cal,46 or 44 in long "b" weight.all my other rifles are 50cals so i should stay with thaT calber.

[David Rase]

Lew,  Don't forget, Rice makes a .50 caliber barrel that is 46" long with a  1" diameter breech, .812" muzzle and the waist at the smallest diameter was .750".   You could probably draw file the breech down a bit if you were so inclined.
DMR