Liogier #49 Prototype Rasp

[Ky-Flinter]

The Kentucky area ALR boys get together every winter at Fort Boonesborough for a day of longrifle camaraderie.  This year we had planned to hold a woodworking rasp comparison.  When ALR member Noel Liogier of France saw our plan, he posted the following.......

As a matter of fact, I am currently working on developing a hand-stitched rasp that would have the same specifications as the Nicholson #49 : many of my customers have asked me to do so saying that since Nicholson had moved its production to Latin America the quality of this respected tool was no longer what it used to be.

So, Ron, if you accept, I could produce and ship you one of this prototype Liogier #49 so you could add it to your rasping contest and I would get some feedback from experienced users on this new tool.

Afterward, as Tom suggested to me, it could be auction off as a fund raiser on the ALR.

Would this be OK ?

I received Noel's prototype # 49 rasp and it looks great.  I was really looking forward to our comparison, but unfortunately, due to the lousy weather this past winter, we were not able to hold our meeting at the Fort.  But, good news, the rasp comparison will go on!  Noel has asked me to post a review of his new # 49 prototype rasp and then I will pass the rasp on to several other LR builders in the area for additional reviews.  Stay tuned.

-Ron

[Ky-Flinter]

Below is a Nicholson USA 49 (upper) and the Liogier 49 prototype (lower).



Below is the Liogier 49 prototype (upper) and the Nicholson USA 49 (lower).



Below is a Nicholson USA 50 on the left, a Nicholson 49 in the center, and the Liogier 49 on the right.



Below is a piece of hard cherry worked with the Liogier 49 (left) and the Nicholson 49 (right),





The dimensions of the Nicholson and Liogier 49 rasps are nearly identical, but the teeth on the Liogier 49 are larger resulting in a more aggressive cut than the Nicholson 49.  The Liogier 49 really removes wood quickly but does not tear the wood.  It works very well for rough shaping.  In it's current configuration, the Liogier 49 paired with the Nicholson 49 and 50, would make a great 3 piece set.  The Liogier for initial rough shaping, then the Nicholson 49 , then 50.

The Liogier 49 is a great tool and I would love to keep it here in my shop, but I must send it on for it's next workout.

-Ron

[David Rase]

The Liogier 49 is a great tool and I would love to keep it here in my shop, but I must send it on for it's next workout.

-Ron

Ron,
You can always send it to me and we can give it a workout/comparison at Ron Scotts during the Oregon Gunmakers Fair on April 26 and 27.
David

[Ky-Flinter]

That sounds great David.  I will be sending the rasp to Ian Pratt for review and the class he and Jim Kibler are holding at Lodi on April 5, then we'll get the rasp on over to you.  Please send me a PM with your mailing address.  Thanks.

-Ron

[Jerry V Lape]

Is it possible to put a couple of the Iwasaki rasps into the mix?  I have both Nicholsen rasps but recently added several Iwasaki's after trying one on my current build.  They are definitely a contender and are available from Woodcraft at less than Nicholsen prices.

[Gary Tucker]

Thanks Ron for showing us those files.  Wish we could have gotten to see them at Boonesboro but maybe some other time.  Looks like the Liogier would really save some time when doing the rough shaping.

[Ian Pratt]

  Ron sent the rasp to me for field trials (glad I was able to get it before Rase and his crew got a hold of it - you gotta watch those guys out west of the equator) The timing was pretty good as I am in the market for a new cabinet rasp or two. I am down to 2 USA made Nicholsons that have both been resharpened more than once and are soon headed for the glue factory.   
  The Liogier rasp showed up while I was in the midst of shaping out a pair of matching Deep River - ish NC rifles. After using it for a short time I came to the following conclusions -
 
 1. it is a very nicely made, high quality tool 

 2. in it's current form, I would not consider it a direct replacement for the old Nicholson 49. Grain size and spacing make for a much more aggressive cut. Also, the round side seems to have a tighter radius.

  In my work I normally start rough shaping with a draw knife, work my way down through molding and block planes , then use a rasp to clean off high spots and do my final rough contouring. From the rasp I go to files then scrape. Adding a coarser cutting rasp doesn't really save me any time since I would have to follow it with a finer rasp. I can also rough shape the cheekpiece side of a buttstock much more quickly with molding planes than with rasps.
 
   A few photos to illustrate my point  - 








 Still pretty rough at this point, but at the stage where I would normally start using a cabinet rasp. On this side of the stock I use it to level off ridges left by the molding planes and then use it to finish roughing out the contours. 




 From there I would usually grab a file and clean off the rasp marks. The prototype rasp leaves marks (top photo) that I first had to clean up with a Nicholson 49 (bottom photo)






  Last week I delivered a gun to a friend who on that day was taking a knife making class at Canter's Cave over in Jackson OH with Hershel and John House and Willie White. I took the rasp along with me for the guys to try out. Out of eight guys who tested it there was only one who didn't like the way it cut ( said it cut too rough, but to be fair I have to say that wasn't necessarily paying much attention to grain direction). I also took it along with me over the weekend to my Gunmakers' Workshop up at the Log Cabin in Lodi. Again it got mostly very positive comments with only a couple opinions similar to mine. Most of the guys were very impressed with how quickly it cuts compared to the Nicholson rasps. Marc Tornichio came up to help with the class on Saturday and tried out the rasp , maybe if he reads this he might care to add his opinion.   

  All told, it is a well made tool, and it may be just right for those who prefer to shape with a series of rasps. It does cut aggressively, but relatively cleanly. One thing I was definitely impressed by was that the teeth didn't load up easily, always a problem with the Nicholsons.


 
   

   
     

[Ian Pratt]

....and another thing,  does anybody ever use the sawtooth edges on these rasps for anything? I never had any use for them, have always ground them off and stoned the edges smooth.   

[rich pierce]

Don't use rasps much and never the sawtooth edges but I do like the teeth to cut all the way to the edge go the tool.  I have to grind the edges of the Nicholsons because the most lateral teeth are kind of far from the edge on them.

[Curtis]

....and another thing,  does anybody ever use the sawtooth edges on these rasps for anything? I never had any use for them, have always ground them off and stoned the edges smooth.   

Just one thing I know of, that is the wrist extension into the buttstock on a type G trade gun and other similarly shaped guns.  I learned that from Jack Brooks AFTER I had ground the sawtooth edges off my Nicholson #49......

Curtis

[David Rase]

 Ron sent the rasp to me for field trials (glad I was able to get it before Rase and his crew got a hold of it - you gotta watch those guys out west of the equator)

West of the equator?   That is kind of like saying the German's bombed Pearl Harbor?  Anyway, I am glad you bunch of blacksmiths from the Midwest did not report out on how well that rasp could be turned into a knife blade for your field trials.  We will give the rasp a workout on the Hawken project.  You guys set the bar high.
David 

[Liogier]

Thank you very much for this very interesting feedback. I am glad you enjoyed the tool.

Regarding the coarsness, your comments goes in the same direction as other testers in Canada and Australia so I will change the stitching grain on the final Liogier #49 from grain #6 (the sample you have tested) to grain #8 (less coarse grain). And same for the rasp Liogier #50, from grain #9 to #11.

Regarding the sawtooth egde, here I am more hesitant. I understand that as all the rasps the original Nicholson #49 have sawtooth egde (correct ?), but you are not the first one that would have prefer safe edges. Maybe I'll do these #49 and #50 rasps with safe edges to make them more different to all the other rasps I produce (cabinet maker, half-round, modellers, very tapered, etc.) with sawtooth edges.

Last subject but very important to me, I thought I had done the exact same radius as the orginal. Could you (or the next tester if you have already pass on the prototype rasp) please give me more detail about this issue ?

Once again, many thanks for your help in defining this tool.

[Dphariss]

I have used a number of #49 and 50 Nicholson's over the years but never remember using the saw edge and in fact I have at times ground them off.

Dan

[Long Ears]

Thanks for the reviews. That's my next tool. Bob

[Ian Pratt]

  Personally I would be very interested in rasps with those changes made, but most of the the guys who tested this one while I had it seemed to like it "as is".  

  As Rich mentioned, the Nicholsons have a band of toothless freeboard between the raised teeth and the edge. The reason I had initially ground the sawtooth edges off my Nicholsons was to bring the teeth to the edge, but after using other cabinet rasps I found that I preferred them to have a smooth edge, so I do this with all of them now.

  Regarding the radius - I probably should have withheld that comment as it was just an impression,  I had intended to compare it to the other rasps with a contour gauge and got sidetracked. The rasp has been sent along to another tester otherwise I would check it, but I am sure the next guy will have a look at it. Last thing I want to do is spread misinformation.

  Will this rasp be offered in your sapphire range? I use hand tools every day, sounds like it might be a good idea. Knowing that all sharp tools will eventually start to dull with use, can you tell me if that particular treatment has any effect on resharpening?    

  
    
  

[Ian Pratt]

 Ron sent the rasp to me for field trials (glad I was able to get it before Rase and his crew got a hold of it - you gotta watch those guys out west of the equator)

West of the equator?   That is kind of like saying the German's bombed Pearl Harbor?  Anyway, I am glad you bunch of blacksmiths from the Midwest did not report out on how well that rasp could be turned into a knife blade for your field trials.  We will give the rasp a workout on the Hawken project.  You guys set the bar high.
David 

Dave  - I had initially typed "Over that way", but realized nobody would see the direction that I was pointing with my thumb. Knowing that you are a Navy man from way back, please note that I used the old seafaring term "freeboard" in my last post in a vague and "grasping at straws" kind of attempt to salvage our friendship.
 We considered making a knife out of it, but I didn't have a hammer small enough to forge weld the teeth back down. Maybe you guys can come up with something.     

[Acer Saccharum]

Easy boys, don't get your hawsers in a knot. You'll be in the scuppers before you know it and at loggerheads by evening. By and large, you guys get along, until one of you fires a shot across the bow, then it's rubrails and broadsides.

[David Rase]

Easy boys, don't get your hawsers in a knot. You'll be in the scuppers before you know it and at loggerheads by evening. By and large, you guys get along, until one of you fires a shot across the bow, then it's rubrails and broadsides.

Just remember shipmates, we are holding Capt. VonAschwege hostage in an undisclosed location in Oregon, cranking out Lehigh rifles and pistols against his will.  If shots are fired, the good captain will be subject to walking the plank, thus missing out on attending the upcoming Ron Scott Oregon Gunmakers Fair and worse yet, never to step foot in your shop again Tom. 
Arrrrrrrrrrr 

[Acer Saccharum]

If you keep Mr von Aschwiggie, I don't have to feed him.

[Gaeckle]

what's the cost on one of these rasps? Can poor, simple minded folk scratching to earn their keep afford one without dipping into their beer money?

I wouldn't want to sell my collection of Marcel Marceau's Greatest Hits, but if I have to I will......

[kaintuck]

2-6-10 boys if I don't get one!
 

I want a couple in fact.....I want to get the finer grade teeth for running up the sides around the comb and cheek piece on the stock area.

Please send donation money to tomtom......he's my financial adviser and acct payables....

[M Tornichio]

I don't know that I have a lot more to add to the discussion, but I appreciated have the opportunity to test out the rasp. I liked the rasp, but it is not a direct replacement of the #49. It sounds like going to the 8 grain will be a good idea. It seems like the most common question everyone has is how do the european hand stitched rasps compare to the Nicholson's. If the 8 grain is comparable, I think it would really help sell more rasps. They are a large investment, and typically we are unable to test them out before purchasing. Knowing that it is a direct comparison would really help people purchase the correct rasp the first time.
Thanks for sending it over to test.
Marc

[Acer Saccharum]

I have found that a hand stitched rasp of finer grain on hard maple is preferable. I agree with Noel's suggestion of #8 grain for the #49 Nicholson. ANd the #11 stitch for the #50

As far as curvature goes, I use mostly the flat side, even on dished surfaces, so the exact curve of the half round side does not matter that much to me.

I would say the narrow and long would be better than short and wide.

[Jim Kibler]

I've mentioned before that I have an Auriou 10" #9 grain rasp that I love.  The radius on this is relatively flat and it's a little wider than the Nicholsons.  It also comes to more of a point.  I find the overall shape very useful.  It feels a little better to me than the Nicholsons.  As time has passed, I often find that I prefer a relatively shallow radius on files and rasps.  For example, I don't find a half-round file shape to be that great much of the time.  I have few files with sort of a lens shaped cross section, that I typically find more useful.  So, what I'm saying is that although the Nicholsons may have been an old standby, there may be shapes that are more useful in building longrifles.

[Acer Saccharum]

Noel, Jim touches on something that makes a lot of sense. It may not be the best use of your time and money to replicate the Nicholsons exactly, as there may be more useful shapes. I certainly have had no problem with the hand stitched rasps in my collection. Nor have I missed my Nicholson shapes.

But you may have a lot of sales replicating the old Nicholsons, as people are creatures of habit.

It is ultimately up to you to decide if you will go after the Nicholson replacement market.