Pistol with T. Ketland & Co lock and no proof marks

[rbs]

I would appreciate your thoughts regarding the following 2 questions:

      1. Does fact that a pistol with a brass barrel and T. Ketland & Co lock has no proof marks on it indicate that it was likely made in the USA? The gun appears to be all original and looks to have been made in the early 1800s.

      2. During what years were Ketland locks stamped "T. Ketland & Co"?

Thanks for your input.

[Shreckmeister]

I think J V Puleo, who is very knowledgeable about the Ketland family told me that T. Ketland & Co. was
1815-1822.  If you search this site, you will find the answer because he published that info in an earlier
discussion.  I would not say that it's being unmarked is a guarantee that it was American made, but if you
post pictures someone here might answer that for you.

[rbs]

If you wish to send me your email address I will forward photos to you. My email is richardschreiber@cox.net

[JTR]

Rick, I think T. Ketland was in Philadelphia from about 1797 to sometime before the war of 1812.

A lot of rifles were made with Ketland locks, and no doubt plenty of pistols too. If the pistol has a maple stock it's probably US. If walnut more likely Brit, but still possibly US.
Pictures will help.

John

[Bob Roller]

A friend of ours,Larry Vaden has a Ketland flintlock that is marked T.Ketland and it is a primitive thing.
It has no pan bridle and no internal bridle to stabilize the tumbler and never did have.It's for sale if someone wants a relic in nice condition. His business is AAA antiques and the phone is 1-304-523-6990 if anyone is interested.

Bob Roller

[Steve Collward]

rbs:
  Good tip from Shreckmeister to do a search of the ALR site as J.V. Puleo has responded to several questions in the past pertaining to the Ketland's. 
  He also wrote an excellent article, "Ketland Guns In America" in the Dec., 2011 issue (vol. 33/no.6) of Man at Arms magazine.
Very informative.  Back issues are probably available.

[JV Puleo]

Its impossible to be terribly precise without seeing the pistol but...

Lack of proof marks means nothing. Most K export guns (but not all of them) were proofed. Proof simply was not required for any gun being sent out of the UK but was commonly expected by the customer.

"T. Ketland & Co" refers to the partnership between Thomas Ketland Sr. & William Walker although Walker's name does not usually appear until the very end of the firm. The company was in business under that name from at least 1785 to 1821 (although TK Sr. and Walker both died in 1816). The Ketland in America, Thomas Jr., was never a gunmaker in any sense. He was a merchant prince. He was not the agent of his father's company but a partner in two other firms, that of William & Alexnder Walker (his father's partner in the gunmaking firm) and Ketland Cottrell & Co. After about 1804, TK guns were sold through other hardware dealers as TK Jr. nearly went bankrupt and stuck his father and Walker for a considerable amount of money. I seriously doubt that any member of the family had any "hands on" experience with gun making after about 1780. However, TK Jr. returned to England in 1815, after the War of 1812, and it looks as if he took some part in the management of the company with John Adams (It was Ketland Walker & Adams near the end, then just Ketland & Adams). Adams was TK Sr's brother-in-law and  TK Jr's uncle.

However, the export of British guns to America in sizable quantity does not start until 1792 when the Privy Council started giving licenses for the export of "military stores." Prior to this, while some bits certainly came in, they were likely on a very small scale and the scant surviving records on the British side do not tell us what they were or where they were being shipped. Early on, the K&W firm did a considerable amount of business shipping guns to Ireland (which attracted official curiosity at one point)... so we can't presume that everything they exported came to America.

One of the main export products was gun locks. Tens of thousands were imported of all grades. The cheapest had no internal or external bridles but this is a reflection of price rather than when they were made. Locks of this grade were still being exported in large quantities after the War of 1812.

The wood is inconsequential as well. One of the main exports to England at the time was hard wood, walnut especially but I even have proof of TK Jr. exporting maple stock material to England. TK Jr owned hundreds of acres of hardwood forest in Pennsylvania.

[JTR]

Here's some pictures of the pistol;

[rbs]

Thank you John for posting photos of this gun. Mr. Puleo has now answered my question re dates for T Ketland & Co production and hopefully with photos now available will be able to provide more input on question re whether this pistol made in England or US.

[JV Puleo]

I am inclined to think this is an American re-stock of a "better-than-average" export pistol or, perhaps simply made using some British parts and some locally made. One thing that can be said about the bulk of export pistols is that they follow a very predictable style... (actually 3 different styles, depending on the time and market). This pistol doesn't accord with any of them and has some qualities that I see as being rather awkward compared to the English-made product, primarily the raised panel around the lock and the two-piece "sideplate." British pistols do use (and probably introduced) the two-piece form, but it is nearly always a simple washer for the front lock bolt and a "kidney-bean" shape for the rear one. These look rather like awkward provincial copies. The nose cap is rarely, if ever seen on Ketland (i.e. Birmingham) pistols while barrel keys are seen only on the best quality products. If the ramrod thimbles are cast they are probably British, if they are made of sheet metal, they are almost certainly American.

The trigger guard and butt cap are conventional British products but the lock is somewhat better than commonly seen on the K export pistols... better quality pistols were exported to the US but it seems that the vast bulk of the exports were the simplest, and least expensive items usually without bridles on the lock.

Probably 90% of the K pistols I see identified as "American-made" are really British made so I think this one is particularly interesting. I agree re the approximate date... I'd say 1805-1810 but that is just a guess.