Vincent flinter?

[Archie Otto]

In deciding what project will be next I've been ogling the Vincent style of rifle in .45 with a 13/16" barrel and have seen pictures of originals in flintlock.  So, what kind of lock would be correct?   

Also, I have also seen pics of original full stock Vincent but there seems to be a lack of parts sets available. Is there a pre-carve full length stock style that is close to the Vincent style?  Just wondering on the full stock option, not necessarily married to the idea.

[gunmaker]

gunstocksplus has a Ohio rifle full stock, bbl. & rod hole drilled--nothing else tho.   Good wood and good prices from Virg...Use a late lock like a chambers Ketland, file off the tit on rear plate.  L&R Bailes 2nd choice.  That will make up a nice deer rifle for certain...Tom

[galudwig]

There is an example of a fullstock flintlock Vincent in the Campus Martius Museum in Marietta, OH.  However, I was at a gathering there a few years back and the consensus among the more schooled in the history and work of the Vincents that the example on display was converted to flintlock; basically a "fantasy" gun.   The lock in the gun is marked "Henry Parker Warranted"



Parker was a lock maker who supplied the gun building trade with flint and percussion locks, so, it is at least plausible that the gun is original.   There were several examples of percussion rifles in the display that sported similar patchboxes to that of the flint rifle (lending some credence to the fantasy gun theory).  I don't know the right answer, but I took pictures of the flint gun anyway because I thought it was pretty cool. 







Jim Johnston of Golden Age Arms in Ashley, OH used to provide the option of a fullstock Vincent kit in percussion or flint, but I can't remember what lock he used.  I'd think that something small like a Late English from R.E. Davis or Chambers, or an L&R Manton would suffice.  While none of those match the appearance of the Parker lock, my point is that there probably is not a "correct" flint lock for a fullstock Vincent available anyway.  I have a good friend who uses a fullstock rifle in the Vincent style for offhand match shooting.  He put a Dale Storey mule ear lock in it.  Take your pick among those good, reliable locks and work towards out-shooting the purists who would argue your gun never existed.

I'd be interested in seeing other pictures of Vincent rifles with flint ignition if you have any.  I'd thought of doing up a .40 match rifle in flint.  However, I found a new Dale Storey mule ear lock on eBay and I have plans to eventually put it in a Vincent halfstock I have on hand.

galudwig

[smokinbuck]

Just my 2 cents but you aren't going to see many Vincent full stocks and even fewer flints. Been a subject of conjecture for a looong time as to their authenticity.
Markl

[galamb]

John Vincent (the father) was primarily a cabinet maker and a farmer. Born in 1809 he was 38 before he took up gunsmithing (so 1847'ish).

John Caleb (the son) was born in 1841. He served in the Ohio Militia during the war so may or may not have spent a lot of time in the shop building during the war years.

Between 1848 and 1853 records show that John produced 38 rifles and 1 pistol.

Then between 1853 and 1863 (they) produced 88 rifles.

In 1863 Caleb finished his Militia service and set up his own shop. It is speculated that he was more interested in gunsmithing than farming which was his fathers primary "occupation" and there may have been a "falling out" between the two of them.

From 1865 until John's death in 1882 there is no record that he produced a rifle, only repairs are listed in the shop journal (but he may have kept a separate building journal that has since been lost).

If Caleb kept records on rifle production while he was on his own, it's never surfaced, but all "Caleb" Vincent rifles would have been post 1863 making a flint even more "uncommon/unlikely".

So, with the history lesson over, because of the time frame when John started building, and when Caleb was born - both well into the percussion era, production of flintlocks by either would probably be somewhat rare.

The flint model, built by John Vincent and pictured above is the only one I have seen (in an early picture taken by Shumway).

So, personally, if I was going to build a flint Vincent, it would certainly be by his father and would take the architecture from one his earliest known surviving rifles.

[DICKH]

      In the September1943 issue of MUZZLE BLASTS there is a story on the Vincents by Claude Nicewanger
there is also a picture of J.C.Vincent standing in his shop door with a flintlock rifle he made in his latter days
picture was taken in 1915 by W.C. Nicewanger. The same pictureis is in OHIO LONG RIFLES VOLUME 1 and
in OHIO GUNSMITHS & ALLIED TRADESMAN VOLUME V. But say nothing about it being a flintlock rifle.

     Richard Henderson

[Archie Otto]

The only thing more interesting than old guns is the history surrounding them, so thanks for the information. I do not want to just throw a bunch of parts together and attach an historic name on it. At the same time building an exact copy of an original is probably beyond my skill level.  

Let me ask another question then,  I want to build a full stock .45 caliber flintlock with a 13/16" barrel no longer than 36".  Curly maple, either iron or brass furniture is OK and not fancy in regards to ornate carving and engraving (not like I could anyway).  I could go either way on the patchbox but not anything too intricate.  I like the stock contour of the Vincent in regards to drop at heel and buttplate contour.   I am not in love with any particular school or time period and it should be a moderately challenging project.  I have assembled a full stock T/C upgrade stock from Track (see my avatar) so something that will allow me to advance my skills forward.   I have probably described half the long rifles out there.  

Suggestions are welcome.

[Acer Saccharum]

Log Cabin Shop has a Vincent collection in their museum, maybe half a dozen. I recall the ignition system on the rifles is percussion.

[g rummell]

Here's one I just finished up. Historically accurate??? More of a fantasy rifle. Colrain 36" 7/8 .50 caliber, small Chambers / Siler lock, curly maple stock I cut from a blank.

[gunmaker]

Don't hang a name around your rifles neck.  Go ahead and build a "Late flint rifle"  in style of Indiana, Ohio, Illinois, etc. Lots of 'em out there, it'll still kill a deer or ring gongs--even if you call it " my rifle"    ...2 cents from   Tom

[Curtis]

Very nice looking rifle, Gary!

Curtis

[galamb]

Vincent's appear to be the Ohio rifles that the stock duplicators latched on to.

There was many many Ohio builders that used similar architecture/style that did build in flint and a number of them were in the smaller calibers (sub-50).

Check out the AOLRC webpage http://www.aolrc.org/.

If you look under their "publications" drop down, about half way down the page they have articles (in pdf).

Everything you want to know about Ohio rifles, the gunsmiths etc. The pics are black/white, but if it was built in Ohio they probably have some info on it.

I went on a mini Ohio-building binge. Started out like you "thinking" I wanted to build a Vincent but after seeing rifles by Daniel Marker (his Ohio work) and James McCamment I totally forgot about wanting a Vincent.

[Archie Otto]

Tom, I like the way you think. 

Graham, thanks for the link.  This is the type of information that will bring it together for me. 
It will take me a while to look through this history but I'm not in a hurry.

[Long John]

Sometimes we tend to forget that those makers that have become "notable" were preceded and surrounded by other makers that didn't become noted only due to happenstance.  If you look around long enough you will find guns made in western New York that had the general form of a Vincent but were of flint ignition.  Take for example the original Remington rifle that Eliphat (sic?) Remington made by hand.

The Vincent rifles are the culmination of a long evolution in form.  I suspect that there were many predecessor rifles to those Vincent rifles that survived.

Best Regards,

John Cholin