Question for any gunmakers

[brooktrout]

I see some really nice work shown by a number of makers.  I'm just wondering about something and it may seem like a nutty question but here goes....

As one begins making guns let's presume that they begin with the demonstrations of their skills by creating a duplicate or a "replica" of an existing authentic gun. Their initial efforts are good, but far from the best but they grow and get better.  As ones skills are sharpened and techniques perfected maybe they become the best of the best.  So here is the question.  As a gun maker do you feel "perfection" is achieved in the act of creating a replica, perfect in every detail?  OR do you continue to "grow" going beyond the lines of past masters and seek to become known for the original character of your work; no longer seem as a "replicator" but a master maker who will be recognized for now and years to come as the creator of a style of work which is and will in the future be identified as unique to you?  I will offer this analogy to further explain what I'm asking.  I have always admired the works of Renoir and Monet.  Now, I'm not art historian, but I suspect they were "schooled" in a style of the "masters" of a much earlier time.  But if they only painted in that style the world would never have their masterpieces to enjoy.  What's your view?

[whetrock]

Hey Trout,
Good question. There is a lot of debate on here, and some of it is driven (perhaps subconsciously) by various philosophies. I'm not an expert, but here's a link to something I posted a while back. It's not a direct answer to your question, but perhaps it can serve as a reply and maybe add something to the discussion.

"philosophies of builders"
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=25329.0

Whet

[Lucky R A]

    I don't consider myself a Master of anything, but I have built over 260 long rifles, and have restored a fair number of originals.  It is my preference to try to build as close to an original as it exist today,as possible.  I went through a period early on where I "borrowed" elements from other schools and  mixed them together, but the more I learned the more I wanted to be true to the originals.  I occasionally have a client that has requests for specific items or personalization which I try to accommodate.  It takes study and research to learn as much as you can about a specific gun and then to try to amass the elements to accurately recreate it.  Many times parts need to be manufactured, modified or in some cases you just get as close as possible.  To my mind it takes more discipline to go this path. 
      Building "what suits you," is liberating but has it's own set of hazards.  It is kind of like breeding dogs, do you want a purebred or are you satisfied with a crossbred?  I have known some good cur dogs, but have had more predictable results from a good purebred.   
      This isn't a question of right or wrong, it is just what you want to achieve, and what your standards are.

[kaintuck]

This was a start form me, a kit rifle from TVM.....I was so happy to make and finish this rifle. That was years ago.....and now?
1. This is my current hobby.
2. Personally, I strive to develop my own rifle, but, not straying from a recognizable school. Lancaster, SMR etc.
3. Getting better at details, like a chef, who makes a great steak into something you'll want again, and he is the only fellow with the secret of preparation. His work is different intrinsic to him.
4. I'm not about notoriety, not interested in making a name for myself....I do this stuff as a hobby, not a job, so if I quit it tomorrow, and went back to building funiture, I can be just as happy
5. I like the works of others here and around the world....it's interesting....and inspiring!

Marc and his sidekick....TomTom
We have fun in life......

[brooktrout]

Whet:   That was VERY interesting!  And being totally new to this interest, I never even considered the matter of tools.  I feel better informed now.  And you categorized the various maker mind sets in a way that I understand.  There are more than I anticipated.  You also touched on something I recently encountered.  I think you called it judging another's work by ones own standards.  Probably done by all but the enlightened one may tend to refrain from open criticism?  Now, one more question for you concerning stocks specifically.  Let's take a gun made in 1790 which has been well used, yet cared for.  And let's dismiss all broken or splintered wood or other obvious "damage".  Considering the form and finish we see on that gun today, would one who "replicates" it try to do so as it was when it was made, or as it is seen today?  I guess the question specifically relates to wear from handling which slightly alters the form (shape) of specific areas as well as the finish.  I suppose that question is complicated by the various mind sets you noted, so try to frame the answer as one who would be focused on historical correctness. 

I see responses by kaintuck and Lucky RA since I started, so I'm off now to consider their views now......

[Ed Wenger]

Excellent question and topic.

I think most of us follow what Ron described, staying true to the original form.  I feel you can do that while putting your own "spin" on the piece, such as carving techniques or engraving style.  An apprentice would be heavily influenced by his Master, but would also develop his own unique "style".  I look at this as a form of revival art, and an extension of the craft developed in the 17th and 18th century.  Pick one of your favorite contemporary builders, and I think you'd be able to identify their work even though the piece is based upon a specific school or builder of the time. 

To answer your question, you could most likely pursue "perfection" by either method.   At the end of the day, you get better by building guns. 

Your question as to building a piece with various amounts of wear, or aging, is a personal taste, with some fairly strong opinions on both sides...

Thanks for the question, look forward to reading others input.


         Ed

[smart dog]

Hi Brooktrout,
An artist friend of mine once said his instructors at art school always advised students to develop craft first and then the art will come.  Artistic talent isn't very useful if you cannot express it.  Copying masterful work is one way to gain the skills, and the mental library of ideas and inspiration needed to create your own art.  Personally, I am not very obsessed with my products but much more so with the process of making them.  I have that liberty because I am not trying to earn a living making guns.  I am also not that obsessed with actually achieving perfection.  I try to do the best work I can but all my work is flawed and that gives me incentive to keep pushing the envelope of what I can accomplish.  In addition, maintaining perfection would be stifling because I would be scared to try new things and risk failure. It is that never ending quest or process that keeps me happily doing this, not having the guns themselves.  I believe it is important to preserve old traditions and styles but it is also important to explore and express original ideas within the framework of those traditions.  If some don't do that then the art of longrifles becomes a dead end and is no longer a living entity.  However, there is room for everyone's expression in this enterprise and I certainly do not want to impose my philosophy on anyone.

dave       

[Old Ford2]

Very interesting post!
I have been making guns for most of my life. In the earlier years they were modern firearms, and then the black powder bug hit me.
It was extremely difficult in the transition from modern to black powder, as modern guns have no exact style, whereas BP guns really do have a particular style.
At first I would put any plastic finish I could find, because it was faster, easier, and cheaper in time and cost ( maybe )
But the end result was not comparable or satisfying.
And then to the metal work, that was something else. Taking a good barrel, and then turning it from octagonal to round to save weight. End result was a mongrel that represented something that never existed.
So to enter this passion one has to put much of everything we knew from other experiences in life, and then to study a forgotten art, and then bring it to life.
With a great site like ALR there is much help and information available here.
Good luck on your journey.
Fred

[Ben Quearry]

Very good topic
I too started at a young age building "mongrels" then I was fortunate enough to meet Myron Carlson at Friendship in the late '80s. Myron said he was a "student of Southern Mountain Rifles"but he was truly a master. He took me under his wing and taught me so much about SM Rifles; Bean, Soddy, Ambrose Lawing. He was also a collector and had many originals. The quality of the iron work, the way the SMR builders used copper to soder iron together (one theory is the British prevented brass from coming to the young USA, lead was needed for bullets but copper was being mined locally along with iron.), among other things fascinated me. For years I worked to copy the originals. I also met and was befriended by Jim Hash, another iron master from Appomattox, VA. Jim's rifles always were carved, engraved and ornate. Jim encouraged me to develop my own style as he did but I had to learn from the originals first. So, many years and many rifles later I am developing my own style; heavily influenced by originals and two great masters. I guess this is a long winded way to say one must study the originals for a long time then develop one's own style.
Ben, a student of Southern Mountain Rifles

[Eric Kettenburg]

JMHO but I think making direct copies of any given piece, no matter how appealing or attractive the 'cloned' piece, is quite possibly one of the most boring, stifling endeavors on the face of this planet Earth.  Conversely, I find working within a particular school or style, but with the ability to make "the next one" or something very reminiscent but at the same time different, to be extremely satisfying.  To my way of thinking, this fulfills a reverence for history and the desire to somehow involve oneself with any given piece, maker or style, but at the same time it allows for a degree of "artistic expression" (whatever that is).

[PPatch]

Smart Dog (Dave) said a mouthful and his remarks reflect my feelings and approach also. Yes, Renoir and Monet both attended schools that taught in the classic manner. Classicism, the basics anyway, are still taught in the better art schools because it is the time honored basis for developing artistic skills. A large part of the classic method is learning to sketch and draw, classes in proportion and the study of color. In other words the classic method is skills development and practice. Once you understand these techniques you are free to explore and develop your personal style.

So, when you, brooktrout, do a few copies and along the way perfect (as much as possible) your approach to gunmaking and build skills I am betting you will have the urge to move into newer territory, abet within a style, and begin to express your thought and tastes in the guns you produce.

As someone already said: enjoy the journey

dp

[jerrywh]

In my opinion copying an original for a starter develops craftsmanship. It takes years to learn to use the tools and to use your hands the correct way. To some it is almost natural. For myself grew up very poor and if I wanted any toys I had to make them. That was a common thing in my generation. As for the artist part I think that just comes from the love of beauty. From that desire one reads thousands of books and studies thousands of pieces of others art. We all learn from others or our predecessors. Eventually a most people  will take on his or her own style mostly because of boredom I think.  Whether or not anybody will like it is something else. Some will and some won’t but the thing should be to satisfy yourself. I have developed a attitude of self competition. I don’t try to compete with others. I admire others work a great deal. For my self I am basically and engraver anymore. I only make guns so that will have something to engrave. I do not think there is a such thing as the best of the best [ one person.]. There is a small class of artists that are near equal who are extremely talented because they have developed to that point by persistence and hard work. I have heard say that others are born with the talent. I don’t believe that. If there is a gift from God, and I believe there is, it is the gift of the love of art and beauty and the desire to create.  It is the romance of art. Perfectionism is a sort of wonderful curse. That all being  said this can only be done if God will allow you to live long enough. There is no trick.  Fame is a by product. There are people in my profession who will keep you humble.
 Among the gunmakers who I admire is Eric Kettenburg

[Mike Brooks]

JMHO but I think making direct copies of any given piece, no matter how appealing or attractive the 'cloned' piece, is quite possibly one of the most boring, stifling endeavors on the face of this planet Earth.  Conversely, I find working within a particular school or style, but with the ability to make "the next one" or something very reminiscent but at the same time different, to be extremely satisfying.  To my way of thinking, this fulfills a reverence for history and the desire to somehow involve oneself with any given piece, maker or style, but at the same time it allows for a degree of "artistic expression" (whatever that is).

What he said.

[pushboater]

My feelings on the subject tend to run along the lines of Eric.  Building Longrifles is something I truly enjoy doing. This is a hobby for me.  I do not make a living building Longrifles and for the most part I only build for myself.  I only build what I want to build and what pleases me.  Occasionally someone talks me out of one, but I usually only sell one when I need a little extra cash to finance my next project.  I personally find no joy in copying the work of others whether they be the original masters or contemporary builders.  Nicholas Beyer, of Lebanon county, apprenticed under J.P. Beck, and although he used basically the same furniture and Stock Architecture as Beck, he did not copy his work and developed his own unique style.  I also feel that J.P. Beck probably encouraged him to do so and was probably very proud of his prodigy.  In my humble opinion, A copy will forever be a copy when with just a little bit of imagination it could have been turned into an Original.  Some people find great joy in copying the work of the master gunsmiths, and I respect them for that because they're doing what they love to do.  The bottom line is, do what makes you happy.  if you're not happy then you need to find another hobby or profession because life's too short.

[Acer Saccharum]

I agree on a lot of what has been said.

If a student wants to paint like 'an old master', he/she must study the old master's work. You cannot learn much just by looking at it, you need to try to reproduce the look, to learn the layering of the pigments, make the attempts to get the same transparency of color, the tones of the varnishes, the depth of surface.

But copying for me is an exercise, not an end. It's a learning experience.

I need to be fired up about my work. I need to be learning something with every project. I try to have that magic take place when I build a gun. It's not a search for perfection, but for harmony and beauty. And I have a dark side, which sometimes shows.

[whetrock]

Considering the form and finish we see on that gun today, would one who "replicates" it try to do so as it was when it was made, or as it is seen today?  I guess the question specifically relates to wear from handling which slightly alters the form (shape) of specific areas as well as the finish.

Trout,
To reply to your follow up question about aging, yeah, there is a spectrum of how much (if any) aging builders like to do. Their preferences depend in part on what they (or their customer) intend to do with the gun. Do they plan to shoot it, or is it primarily a work of art or a museum piece? Some like a shiny “new in the box” rifle. Others like to see a light patina on the iron and brass, but no major wear. Others like to see a more distress—more “age” and “character”, even light scratches and dents. As you suggest, they may soften the edges of high relief carving or even wear down the finish somewhat in high stress areas.

Aging has at times been used as a way of trying to mask lesser quality work. But in my opinion, in its finer expressions, aging is itself an art form. Regarding contrasting opinions on aging and it’s development as an approach to finishing a contemporary firearm, you might want to read: http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=1012.0
I would recommend in particular Eric Kettenburg’s post in that thread: “Reply #4 on: September 04, 2008”.

Whet

[kaintuck]

Everyone's standards are close....a quality handmade rifle, something personal. I have a original buck Rogers Ray gun, and although very nice condition.....I would trade it for my dads he had as a boy....long lost. But the one I have "represents" my feelings.....a monument to a era lost to time, my fathers childhood, and this ray gun, WAS someone's toy, with it's own stories.
Aged rifles represent tales, and time.....they look like John Wayne's hat, been there done that......

And new sparkly rifles shows a quality hand made rifle......character to be imposed upon yet.....
Marc

[54ball]

 Lets take something as simple as a circle.

 Two circles are on a piece of paper one is perfect in every way. The second circle is hand drawn.

 The first circle as said is perfect in every way.

 The second hand drawn circle on close examination may be slightly oval, it may have corrections where the arch was corrected by the drawer. The lines may vary in thickness as the drawer presser harder here and there.

 Which circle do you prefer?

 In my opinion the first circle is lifeless. It's antiseptic, It's not real???

 The second has a soul so to speak, It's imperfections are what makes it....dare I say perfect.

 Lets take gun building. A builder can stick within a era or school and the possibilities are endless.

 Here are some examples of what I mean.

 One builder builds in what I call a workman's like manner. He does it for a living. His engraving is almost crude looking but it isn't. His aging tells a story. His stuff to me is authentic and...real. By real it looks like what was made 250 years ago but it's new. I dig it.

 Another builder who as far as know does not build for a living. He is more artful in the classical sense. He seems to like early period rifles. He did a Continental piece that had a scene engraved in Silver. His work looks like the art featured in 17th Century Bibles. Nude figures, bushes, hidden things. Neat stuff It fit. I dig it.

 Both are extremes yet they are believable to the era. Both work.

 But I have seen rifles with engraving and work so perfect it looks like a made in China decal. It looked too new or maybe even machine made. The work looked antiseptic and soulless. Honestly, that takes away from the piece.

 I'm not meaning to harp on engraving, for brevity that's the example I used.

  

[brooktrout]

All VERY informative.  Thanks to all who responded and for any yet to come.  I can see some of the "types" of builders Whet notes in the replies of some.  In the end it seems that the # 1 critic of one's work is the maker himself. (Herself???  any gals make guns?)

I'll also add that while being totally new, I think I did anticipate some of the comments but still there are discoveries in the replies.  I'm not sure I'll ever get into building.  I do not have great patience and tend to be easily frustrated by things I make that don't turn out the way I envisioned them.  I think I have a sense of style but cannot execute.  Maybe the best I can do in this new interest is to shoot them.  And I'm not sure about the aspect of "God given talent".  I cannot sing, dance, play a musical instrument and have a hard time drawing a straight line with a ruler.  Combine that with old bones and eyes and it would all add up to a pretty sloppy job.  I admire people who can make these guns.  There is beauty in every one I see from the most simple to the most embellished.

[jerrywh]

 Nobody can sing ,dance, play guitar or draw a straight line when the yare born. A few years ago I said I could never engrave if my life depended on it. Then a great teacher asked me, "how do you know?"
 People are capable of things they cannot imagine if they will only try. It,s a mental thing. Usually

[Dennis Glazener]

Nobody can sing ,dance, play guitar or draw a straight line when the yare born. A few years ago I said I could never engrave if my life depended on it. Then a great teacher asked me, "how do you know?"
 People are capable of things they cannot imagine if they will only try. It,s a mental thing. Usually

I fully agree with Jerry. My dad was a mechanic, he could make or fix most anything. For the life of him he could not understand how some people would bring him the most simple things to make or fix. He used to have a saying "Can't" never could, never will because he won't try! That is one thing he taught me, he made me try to fix things myself before he would do it for me. Even today I don't hesitate to try something on my own, some things work out much better than I ever thought they would, then other things not so much but at least I tried!
Dennis

[Acer Saccharum]

I was struggling all day yesterday with 'Imagination' and how important it is in my work, how to word it for the forum.


Today I happened to read in an article about 'respectful re-imagination' in an architectural topic. But that fits to a 'T' how I feel about my gunbuilding; respectful of the past, yet employ my own creative abilities.

[kaintuck]

I think 54ball will like my crude rifles with personality!!!

All I know is what appeals to me.....Keith makes his southern rifles, Ken makes them dang good looking Moravain rifles  .....he's MADE  mr have to make one........

And yup........I like making these rifles, unending supply of ideas.....then I sell it....on to the next idea....and if I want to stop working on it for a few weeks.......it doesn't ruin!

Marc

[brooktrout]

Acer:  If I were to even become a builder/maker I think your sentiment would be like mine.  But I suppose it's a lengthy road from beginning to that point.  Some have said how long they have been building, others have not but most of you probably know each other and odds are probably strong that 20 plus years might be a low side estimate.  Good grief!  In 20 years I'll be on the edge of 90!  How many 90 year old builders are there!  Now I also appreciate the encouragement offered by all.  And I have spent a good part of my working life trying to get organizations to "imagine the possibilities" as I presented them with new approaches to old problems and worn out solutions.  So I very firmly believe that we impose upon ourselves more limitations that any external aspect of our existence.  Yes, it is a "mental thing".  Attitude, desire and effort are winners over most any other psychological mind set.  None the less, I also feel aptitude, which can be a complex set of personal characteristics, does factor in.   But then maybe it's also a matter of priorities.  Hard to put down the fly rod and take up something else.

[bama]

Learning to become a "Master". If you do not have a Master to teach you then the teaching aid is the work that the Mater's left behind. The only way we have to figure out how the Master's did something is to try to replicate it. This is a trial and error process but a process that must be made. Now fortunately today we have many talented builders and an abundance of ways to share knowledge so not everyone has to reinvent the wheel. With that said it does not mean because you have read the how to on the net or taken one of the available classes that you can do the work. You still have to learn the process. Once the process has been mastered it can be appiled. With rifle building as we all know there are many processes to master but with hard work and patience it can be done.

To me someone who has taken time to study and practice and learned to skills required to "Copy" and make a truely outstanding representation of an original work has earned their stripes so to speak.

From there I think the natural urge is to create your own "Master piece" for the builders that are coming along to study.

I would never turn down the opportunity to try to recreate an outstanding early rifle but at the same time I want to display my own skills in my own design.