Author Topic: Southern Mountain Rifle  (Read 12702 times)

keydet15

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Southern Mountain Rifle
« on: May 29, 2014, 11:35:20 PM »
Hi y'all

This is my first flintlock rifle build, took me about a year with off for school. Its not as nice as some of the guns that I have seen on here.  Its a 54 cal 42 inch barrel with a plain maple stock.  I learned a lot doing it and would like yalls opinions on what I could improve on for my next build.






Offline Clark Badgett

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Re: Southern Mountain Rifle
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2014, 11:43:50 PM »
Anything looks good from 10 feet.;D  If you want some honest helpful critiques from these knowledgeable gentlemen here, they will need some close ups.
Psalms 144

keydet15

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Re: Southern Mountain Rifle
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2014, 12:25:29 AM »
good call it have to wait till the rain stops as those are the only pictures ive got at the moment

jamesthomas

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Re: Southern Mountain Rifle
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2014, 03:41:23 AM »
 Personally, I think a .54 is not the proper cal. for a southern mountain rifle. It should be a .32 to a .45 caliber  In my opinion. But its a nice rifle from 10 feet away.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2014, 03:50:11 AM by james e »

keydet15

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Re: Southern Mountain Rifle
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2014, 02:35:10 PM »
Ok the rain has stoped so heres some more photos.  please excuse the poor photography. 






Offline heinz

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Re: Southern Mountain Rifle
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2014, 05:03:35 PM »
Southern Mountain rifles generally come in 3 flavors, squirrel rifles 30 to 40 cal, deer/turkey rifles 38 to 45 cal, and bear rifles, 50 cal and up.  For chunk guns/target rifles the preference seems to cover all of the above.   
Key that is a nice first effort.  You need to look at the lock bolt panels on some originals in the Library here.  Stain color is a personal preference but I would go for darker than what you have for a bear rifle.  Keep at it.  Work up a good load for this and it should kill most anything you hunt. Anything less than 30 pounds you best make a head shot :-)
kind regards, heinz

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Southern Mountain Rifle
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2014, 05:37:58 PM »
Its a great start in the addiction!!  As Heinz said look at other examples for more pleasing lock and side panels. It also looks heavy and flat sided in the lower forestock.  Draw a line parallel with the top of the forestock 1/2-2/3 of the way up from the bottom and then take off wood by rounding up to that line and down to that line. the lower forestock should probably be nearly round in cross section. maybe slightly oval. Again look at good examples (Gillespie for one)

I think it would look better with another 1/16th inch of barrel showing above the forestock.  Most of your wood to metal fit looks good from what I can see except on the side plate inlets. mor e care and practice will help those. And you can fill those kind of goofs and make them go away if you want, slivers of wood or sawdust and glue will do magic if done with care and colored properly...we have many with great skill in this art  :-) I'm learning.....

A SMR would likely have a smaller and much lower front sight.

Other guys can tell you much more about this type of rifle and some of the more common mistakes in design and furniture etc.

Hope that helps.  Have you had a chance to see how she shoots yet??  Keep up the good work. The next one will be a big improvement!!
« Last Edit: May 30, 2014, 05:38:25 PM by Dr. Tim-Boone »
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Offline mountainman70

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Re: Southern Mountain Rifle
« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2014, 04:46:51 AM »
Personally, I think a .54 is not the proper cal. for a southern mountain rifle. It should be a .32 to a .45 caliber  In my opinion. But its a nice rifle from 10 feet away.

James,we got some serious big ol skwirlz here in Wva,and from my time in Georgia pecan country,why,some o them bushy tails needs big killin like a 54 can de-liver.,sides,ya can git a good handfull o number 4s in em,git 2 o them tree rats at one shot.lol,keep at it  keydet.Bestegards,Dave ;D

54ball

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Re: Southern Mountain Rifle
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2014, 09:34:08 AM »
Quote
  I learned a lot doing it and would like yalls opinions on what I could improve on for my next build.

 OK
 I'm going to give you what you asked for. Now understand I'm a novice too but I have studied these rifles for a number of years.
 I assume that this rifle was built from a blank. I want to commend you for your effort. You have accomplished what many only dream of doing. 

 There are things that you can do improve this rifle or ... do better on the next one.
 


 Firstly there is a flaw in the architecture in the breech to wrist transition. Note how the drop in the wrist begins abruptly on your rifle.  Note how the wrist drop flows smoothly on the Gillespie from the library. Now you will see many Early fowling guns,Trade guns and early 18th Century rifles with a wrist similar to yours but it's not commonly found on SMRs if at all.
  Note how symmetrical the top and bottom of the Gillespie wrist is. The wrist on your rifle widens as it approaches the lock and breech being unsymmetrical and giving the look of a slight humpback.
 Now I think there are some things you can do to improve it a little but I do not think it can be completly overcome on this rifle.

 It may be just me but it looks like your triggers may need to go slightly forward some. How is the trigger pull unset? How do they function set?




 There are several things going on here. But lets try to go through them one at a time and maybe we can put it all together by the time we're through.
 Now you have to be careful with photographs as they may distort reality. You have to keep this in mind when you study from photographs. It helps to study rifles up close, in hand. Even if they are factory made guns, actually feeling how they fit together provides so much that a picture cannot.

 It looks like that lock is as high on the flat as possible. It's usually best if you get it as low on the side flat as possible. This gives you more room to shape the wood from the tang down to the lock behind the breech. This also gets you closer to the bottom of the stock.

 It appears your tang is buried in the wrist. Now you may be able to file that top line down and feather it into the wrist. Let the barrel tang be the peak of the wrist. Bringing this down just a little will help with the symmetry mentioned above.

 Note the bottom of your stock from the wrist through the lower forestock to ramrod entry.  The bottom of the stock appears to taper from the lock area to the ramrod entry. With a lot of study and care you may be able to straighten that taper out by thinning the bottom of the stock from the wrist to the the middle of the lower forestock feathering into the ramrod entry. Doing that and may be enough to lessen the "hump" effect mentioned earlier.  This will most likely mean setting your triggers a little deeper as some of that real estate may need to be removed. If you try this do the top line first Tang, and then see if it's possible to make it symmetrical with working on the bottom. Study study study think think think.

 Barrel rails.... The rails of your barrel channel appear to angle up as they approach the lock. If you study original rifle you will find, most of the time the opposite is true.  On a lot of original guns the barrel channel reveals more of the side flat as it approaches the lock instead of less. Simply straitening that channel from mid forestock to the lock bolster will lessen the taper look. Again study and think.

 Lock Panels...You know your lock panels need work. I think these are common problem with all new builders. Honestly it takes guts to go at them like you should. Secondly it's near impossible,at least for me, to shape a complicated rounded shape with square tools. Lock panels are difficult to explain. Personally I like to use a round rat tail rasp/file to shape them and how they flow into the wrist in the rear and the forestock in front.

 Lock panels kind of magically emerge as you work towards your outline with a round file. Another factor is if your stock is slab sided, that makes the lock panels more difficult. Again study study study and think. Rounding that wrist and forestock will make filing in the lock panels easier.

 Lastly on the lock panels note how the panels on the Gillespie follow the contour of the lock, especially on the bottom. The looks of your would be improved if the bottom your lock panel matched the contour of the lock just like that Gillespie does.



 Here is the bottom side of that Gillespie from the museum. Note how thin it is. Note the rounded belly of the trigger area and the forestock and how all that gels with the lock panels. Note too How thin the wrist is and how it's width matches the the width of the rifle in front of the lock.

 Here is the top side just note her architecture,her shape. Especially pay attention to how the tang is the peak and the sides of the stock on each side of the tang round down to the lock and side panel. Note how rounded the wrist is.




 Here we can see a lot. First and foremost look at the side flat on the Gillespie. Note how the top of the side flat meets the top of the top of the side panel. That line continues on to define the topside of the side panel. Remember when I said it helps to have your lock as low on the flat as possible. That lock bolt is a little high so there's little to no room to bring that line down some. I would be real tempted to place that bolt lower and re do it but only you know if that is possible.

 Note how the barrel channel dips to reveal more of the side flat then makes a graceful swoop up to the tang. Note how soft the edges of the side panel are. Note how it is sculpted on the nose mimicking the lock side. Note how the bottom has a graceful arch mimicking the bottom of the lock on the opposite side. Now it may not match the lock side exactly but the mind thinks it does.

 Also you may want to inlet the triggerguard more. 





 Note how the cheek on that Gillespie just fades away onto the buttstock.

 While it is very unfair to compare your rifle to a master of 200 years ago I hope I have helped you develop the eye. You should be very proud of your rifle.

 





keydet15

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Re: Southern Mountain Rifle
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2014, 03:04:02 PM »
I am glad I joined this forum.  Thank you gentlemen for your time and effort I really appreciate it.

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Southern Mountain Rifle
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2014, 04:16:02 PM »
 Hey guys thanks for the close-up of the lock area of the Gillespie rifle. I didn't realize it was a reconversion using an old plate, and CVA parts.
 Good first effort on the SMR. I'll bet the next one is a jaw dropper.

                     Hungry Horse

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Southern Mountain Rifle
« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2014, 05:36:19 PM »
Quote
It may be just me but it looks like your triggers may need to go slightly forward some. How is the trigger pull unset?
54Ball has given you good advice. The only thing that I might differ with him is the positioning of the triggers.

On many SMR you may see the front trigger way forward in the trigger guard bow, I always had a problem with this positioning and wondered why it was so often done that way. Jim Webb explained to me that these triggers were NOT designed to be shot the way most of us shoot today. Once the rear trigger was set the front trigger is very light and the early shooters would use the side/tip of their index finger to release the trigger. This kept the index finger from possibly interfering with the shot during the recoil of the rifle ("tickle" the trigger??). I prefer to shoot the old fashioned way so I place my triggers further back in the trigger bow.

On your rifle I would have tried to have less gap between the triggers and the inside of the trigger bow. (maybe go deeper with the forward return on the trigger guard and/or take more wood off the belly of the forearm)
Dennis

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Online Pete G.

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Re: Southern Mountain Rifle
« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2014, 06:06:09 PM »
The others have given a good start. I see too much wood left behind the barrel flats at the breech and too much wood left underneath on the sides of the guard. At bit of judicious slenderizing in these spots will go a long way towards giving the lock panels a better definition. Also the cheekpiece could have almost the rear half (or maybe about 40%) removed to slim that area. Most southern rifles had a really slender look about them, so while you are at it, slim down that forestock also. A lot of the old guns didn't have an upper forestock much thicker than 1/16" and the lower about 1/8". Good news is that it is easy to remove more wood, just don't go too far because it is NOT easy to add it back.

Enjoy shooting your new rifle and study the pictures in the online library. Instead of looking at the whole gun, concentrate on a particular detail. i.e. how is the wood behind the barrel flats handled; how much of the ramrod is exposed? etc.

Thanks for posting and enjoy your new toy. Get a book or two before you start your next and you will be well on your way.

kaintuck

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Re: Southern Mountain Rifle
« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2014, 02:01:45 PM »
Tip Curtis pointed out on my 1st Mtn rifle...the curve on the rear cheek wood will curve up and teminate at the front of the BP return....Lancasters etc terms at the BP corner ;)


nice work with your 1st one......each one gets better.......it's all those little subtle things that add up....like everyone here told me....think Paris Hilton thin....not Rosie o'donnal....... ;D

I set mine up for a week at a time...then come back...and have at it with rasps again..........i work toward making a broomstick almost!

40" 36cal SMR from mom's walnut tree, she is short, so a 13" LOP fit her well.


humble beginnings~draw out your rifle,LOP, drop in heel, etc...then cut

then rasps the heck out of it!!!!...more wood on the floor than on the gun is good!


marc

Offline Larry Luck

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Re: Southern Mountain Rifle
« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2014, 04:12:13 PM »
Keydet15,

From your ALR name, it appears you might be at VMI and maybe live in Virginia.  If so, there is probably an ALR member/builder within an hour of you.  If you provide your home town, I bet one of the nearby members would PM you with contact information.  There is nothing like handling original rifles or well-built contemporary ones to improve your understanding of the basic architecture.

Keep up the good work,

Larry Luck

keydet15

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Re: Southern Mountain Rifle
« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2014, 07:07:33 PM »
Larry

You are right on both accounts, I am from Madison Va.

Offline Larry Luck

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Re: Southern Mountain Rifle
« Reply #16 on: June 02, 2014, 04:01:10 AM »
keydet,

I suspect one of our nearby members will speak up before long.  I'm down in Williamsburg.  Please keep an eye out for the 2015 Southern Longrifle Show, which we are going to have in Williamsburg in June.  If the 15 is your graduation year, and if active duty orders don't stand in your way, please put us on your calendar.

Best regards,

Larry Luck

Offline mikeyfirelock

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Re: Southern Mountain Rifle
« Reply #17 on: June 02, 2014, 04:59:31 AM »
Keydet15:   ya done good !  That's WAY better than my first rifle (built mostly in my dorm room at college in 1972.  Try that now.)  Keep up the good work.  The comments here are intended to help you on your next build.  Go for it.  I think you've got the fever.    Shoot this one a lot, and start planning the next one.
Mikeyrx  ( about 20 rifles over the last 40 years: some good, some not so good, but enjoyed building them all !)
Mike Mullins