Author Topic: Brass casting question  (Read 6521 times)

Offline Mark Elliott

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Brass casting question
« on: July 19, 2014, 06:10:05 AM »
Is it safe and/or effective to melt brass in a clay/graphite crucible in a gas fired forge with the burners at the top?   The largest crucible would be a B4 with a max capacity of 12 lbs of brass.     

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Brass casting question
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2014, 06:49:35 AM »
I cast brass over the forge(outside) once upon a time. I threw in a bunch of crushed glass, which melts and covers the metal so that the zinc doesn't burn off. I have a small crucible, which may hold five lb at most.

The biggest problem with brass is the zinc burning off, reducing the percentage in the final casting. I've heard that you can add pennies to increase the zinc.

Whatever you do, heat everything well that you're going to add to the pot to drive off moisture. Any condensation can blow metal sky-high.
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Offline WadePatton

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Re: Brass casting question
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2014, 07:36:04 AM »
...
The biggest problem with brass is the zinc burning off, reducing the percentage in the final casting. I've heard that you can add pennies to increase the zinc.

...

Well i don't have any brass casting experience but i do know that you'd better sort your pennies in order to separate the zinc ones from the copper ones if using for metal properties.  This can be done a number of ways: sound, scratch, weight, or the date.  Copper rings, zinc is dead when bounced.  Scratching the coin will reveal silver color (zinc) or copper (not silver).  Zinc pennies weigh a few ounces less per roll.  The date is 1982 for US coinage-IIRC that's the last year of copper. 

Hold to the Wind

Offline Mark Elliott

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Re: Brass casting question
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2014, 07:45:55 AM »
Tom,  You are using a coal forge and heating from the bottom, though, right?   The manufacturer literature I have for my crucibles warns about heating the the crucible from anywhere other than the bottom and having the burner directly bear on the crucible.   However, most of their examples are for heating 200lbs of brass and above.    My feeling is that there is little problem with the small crucibles I am using, but I don't know for sure.    My main concern is a catastrophic failure of a crucible.   I have learned my lesson about making sure that all moisture is driven out of any refractory material,  but I have never heated a crucible in anything but an electric furnace.  

Offline jerrywh

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Re: Brass casting question
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2014, 08:42:22 AM »
Mark. I have cast hundreds of castings with clay graphite crucibles in a propane crucible furnace. I use a flux on the brass and skim it just before pouring.
PS keep your fire a little on the rich side or a reducing atmosphere.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2014, 08:44:02 AM by jerrywh »
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Offline davec2

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Re: Brass casting question
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2014, 09:35:46 AM »
Instead of flux, put a layer of powdered charcoal in the crucible.  It will float on the brass and not get in the way during the pour.  No need to skim it off.  As Jerry says, keep the atmosphere in the furnace rich.  I use a gas fired furnace I made out of an old grease drum and a few bucks worth of refractory cement.  The inside is about 10 inches in diameter and 14 inches deep.

Making a small casting in sterling here.  About 20 ounces in this small ceramic crucible.




« Last Edit: February 21, 2020, 10:37:03 AM by davec2 »
"No man will be a sailor who has contrivance enough to get himself into a jail; for being in a ship is being in a jail, with the chance of being drowned... a man in a jail has more room, better food, and commonly better company."
Dr. Samuel Johnson, 1780

caliber45

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Re: Brass casting question
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2014, 02:00:00 PM »
Hey, Gents -- Good info on brass casting! Thanks! But . . . Davec2, it makes me cringe to see you not wearing safety glasses while handling that molten brass . . . -- paulallen, greencastle, IN

Offline Mark Elliott

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Re: Brass casting question
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2014, 11:15:05 PM »
Dave,

What is that material you have on the floor?     I was going to make a little 2'x3' hearth of fire brick in front of my forge to keep the molten metal off the concrete.    Your solution looks better if it is indeed a refractory material.   

Also,  as a side note,  what do you do special when casting silver? My sources say that I need to mix 50% fresh silver with my scrap.    My question is what is "fresh" silver?   Hasn't it all been remelted hundreds of times of the eons?   

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Brass casting question
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2014, 11:34:23 PM »
My best guess: Looks like a block of graphite with ingot cavities.
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Offline davec2

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Re: Brass casting question
« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2014, 03:51:34 AM »
Mark,

If you are referring to the furnace, it is on casters.  Acer is correct, the block of material I am pouring into is a graphite ingot mold I use to consolidate sterling silver and gold when I am refining.  The graphite ingot mold is sitting on top of a cast iron cone mold used to pour "buttons".  The buttons are a mixture of a lot of slag (borax, glass, etc.) and a small amount of scrap metal.  The metal sinks to the bottom of the conical mold and is easily broken off the remainder of the slag after cooling.  The metal is then remelted and poured into "shot" to start the refining process.

As far as a surface to work on (rather than the concrete) dirt is good.  Or, if you go to anyplace that sells pottery making equipment, they sell ceramic plates in various thicknesses and sizes.  I have one 18 inches square and 3/4 inch thick that I use.  Easy to move around.

As for silver castings, yes, ideally, you should use no more than 50% recycled silver (i.e. previously cast) and 50% new silver.  The difference is that new silver has the correct alloy amounts and little or no dissolved oxygen.  Unlike gold, sterling or coin silver absorbs a good deal of oxygen in the molten state, if exposed to the air during the melt, and a lot of the copper and silver get oxidized to silver oxide and copper oxide.  Some of this leaves the melt as slag but some stays in solution and contaminates the metal.  The addition of new metal brings the alloy amounts closer to ideal and also includes small amounts of anti oxidants.  You can reuse old silver but the more reused silver in the casting the more probable you will get a lot of porosity.  This is often from dissolved oxygen trying to get out of the metal as it solidifies.  (Porosity is also the result of poor gate designs that don't allow the body of the casting to "draw" more liquid metal as the part solidifies).  And, speaking from experience, when you go to all the trouble of making a pattern, and a mold, and a furnace, and the melt, and the pour, and the clean up, and the....etc., the last thing you want to see is that the casting you have invested so much time and effort in is no good because its full of blow holes and porosity.  Faster, cheaper, easier to use new metal.  The new metal, processed in a commercial refinery, is usually melted by induction (very fast) and the furnace has an inert atmosphere (argon) so the new metal is protected from the absorption of atmospheric oxygen.

Lots of tricks and art to castings like this...and obviously it was done for centuries without all the technological wizardry, but then a lot of the old timer castings were really junk or just out in out scrap when they got done.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2014, 03:56:15 AM by davec2 »
"No man will be a sailor who has contrivance enough to get himself into a jail; for being in a ship is being in a jail, with the chance of being drowned... a man in a jail has more room, better food, and commonly better company."
Dr. Samuel Johnson, 1780

Offline Mark Elliott

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Re: Brass casting question
« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2014, 11:33:05 AM »
Dave,

Thanks for all the good info.   Now, I understand what constitutes "fresh" silver. 

Offline Captchee

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Re: Brass casting question
« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2014, 02:40:41 PM »
  yes you can mark . i have 2  clay graphite crucibles and  2 steel ones . Frankly I use the steel more  and save the clays for  minerals .
 The steel gets used for aluminum and Brass
. My propane foundry also has the burner on the side  of the bottom  and is angled . The crucibles set on a platform and the  fire swirls around them .  In other words the crucible does not set on the burner and  it doesn’t get heated directly from the bottom .
 Clay graphite’s also  crucibles also have to be burned out / tempered / what ever you want to call it , before then get used or they will often crack . The other thing that I have found is that  its best to   let them cool slowly .

 I also add pennies to my  melt  so as to raise the zinc level .
  The other thing I do when melting brass is to bring the melt temp well past  the liquid temp .
 Because I do sand castings  the hotter temp  gives me a better pour  in that the  higher temp gives more time for the weight  of the poor to force  itself  nicely into the mould

Offline JCKelly

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Re: Brass casting question
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2014, 09:22:39 PM »
Eye protection would be nice.

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Brass casting question
« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2014, 10:52:24 PM »
I'm betting Dave is aware that many think eye protection is a good thing for this sort of activity.  It's also his eyes and he can make his choices.  Same goes for anyone else.  I'm pretty sure that anyone getting into such an endeavor would realize that eye protection is recommended.  Seems things like this are easy to poke at.  I'd be thankful for all the information that has been shared.

Offline davec2

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Re: Brass casting question
« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2014, 06:26:36 PM »
Caliber45,

Yes, eye protection is a good idea.  The day these pictures were taken, the head band on my face shield broke just as I was putting it on to make the pour and I had to go without it.  Of all the chances I have taken, in both my military and civilian lives, I don't consider this one to be very significant.  But if you're going to do this kind of work, by all means wear eye protection. 

Of course, you can go too far with all that safety stuff.  When I was a boy, I worked on a cattle ranch.  None of us were very big on safety gear back then, and had OSHA been able to dictate our rig, this is what we might have looked like:


« Last Edit: February 21, 2020, 10:39:58 AM by davec2 »
"No man will be a sailor who has contrivance enough to get himself into a jail; for being in a ship is being in a jail, with the chance of being drowned... a man in a jail has more room, better food, and commonly better company."
Dr. Samuel Johnson, 1780

Offline jerrywh

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Re: Brass casting question
« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2014, 06:32:53 PM »
silver temp = 1800 this gun will be at the CLA show in Lexington



« Last Edit: July 23, 2014, 06:41:48 PM by jerrywh »
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Offline Rolf

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Re: Brass casting question
« Reply #16 on: July 23, 2014, 09:09:17 PM »
Wow. Jerry!!! Is that a plain gravity assisted sand cast?

Best regards
Rolf

Offline jerrywh

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Re: Brass casting question
« Reply #17 on: July 23, 2014, 10:15:07 PM »
 No . That is a vacuum assist precision wax casting. 
Nobody is always correct, Not even me.