Author Topic: Ketland marked Bess style musket  (Read 6466 times)

Offline Steve Collward

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 281
Ketland marked Bess style musket
« on: August 18, 2014, 05:51:30 PM »
  Below are some photos of a musket in the style of an India Pattern Bess.  Overall length is 54 3/4" with the barrel length being 39 1/4". Caliber is .66. The barrel is marked with a "42" (rack #?) and proofs at the breech.  As you can see, the lock is marked "T. Ketland & Co." with the inside marked "K W & A".  Behind the side plate is stamped "W O" or "W C".
  As the lock does not have the typical "Tower/Crown/GR" markings, would this be a private purchase military musket? Any thoughts or information is appreciated.











Offline Shreckmeister

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3808
  • GGGG Grandpa Schrecengost Gunsmith/Miller
Re: Ketland marked Bess style musket
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2014, 06:52:40 PM »
I often see reference to India pattern.  What does that mean?
Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.

Offline Dan'l 1946

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 628
Re: Ketland marked Bess style musket
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2014, 08:04:20 PM »
It looks like an officer's fusil or carbine to me.
                                               Dan

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7013
Re: Ketland marked Bess style musket
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2014, 08:35:09 PM »
Hi,
Yes, I think a private purchase fusil for an officer.  The Ketlands were contractors to ordnance. Some regiments collectively purchased officers guns from private contractors.  I am familiar with "W. Ketland & Co" but not "T. Ketland & Company", although Thomas Ketland was a contractor.  Joe Puleo likely would know the details. 

Shreckmeister, India pattern refers to the last variant of the British short land musket before the "new land" pattern was adopted.  It was a simplified cost saving variation (shorter barrel, simpler brass hardware, etc) that was originally made for the East India Company.  British ordnance adopted it as an emergency measure during the beginning of the wars with revolutionary France and later Napoleon because they were very short of useable small arms after the end of the American War for Independence.  Even after the new land pattern was available, the British bought India pattern guns to fill shortages.

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline Telgan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 569
Re: Ketland marked Bess style musket
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2014, 08:54:15 PM »
My vote is for an Officers Fusil as well.

Offline Shreckmeister

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3808
  • GGGG Grandpa Schrecengost Gunsmith/Miller
Re: Ketland marked Bess style musket
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2014, 10:25:09 PM »
Smart Dog. Thanks for clearing that up. Been wondering about that. Thought it might be like one of the cheap persian guns. The guns I saw in india didn't look that nice
Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.

Online JV Puleo

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 935
Re: Ketland marked Bess style musket
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2014, 05:12:05 PM »
I say its not an officer's musket... it is nowhere near of good enough quality. (This term is grossly overused. Real officers muskets are actually quite rare and always of much better than "munitions" quality. They can easily be confused with very high grade volunteer muskets, but this is not one of those.) Its a standard export grade light musket, post 1813. The KW&A stands for Ketland, Walker and Adams which places it in a fairly narrow time frame as shortly after John Adams was taken into the partnership, William Walker retired. It was probably made in 1814 or 1815.

This sort of musket was listed in the Ketland wholesale price list as "muskets with bayonet, steel rods" They were a B'ham staple product and I doubt very much anyone named Ketland had anything to do with their manufacture beyond paying the bill when they arrived.

As far as the two K firms are concerned... T. Ketland was Thomas Sr. For most of his career he had a partner named William Walker who was probably the "money man" in the export business. Walker's name rarely appears on the guns and then only at the very end although he was involved at least as early as 1785. He never referred to himself as a gunmaker or gunsmith... he was always a "merchant" which, in 18th century B'ham trade, meant that he traded overseas. John Adams was TK Sr's brother-in-law, married to TK's much younger half-sister.

W. Ketland was TK's oldest son and the only son to be a partner in the TK firm. He left the company in 1801 to set up on his own but died in 1804. His company continued on until bankrupt in 1831.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 06:44:04 PM by JV Puleo »

Offline Steve Collward

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 281
Re: Ketland marked Bess style musket
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2014, 01:26:27 AM »
  Thanks to all that have replied. The information provided is very helpful. 
  Overall, this musket remains in very nice condition. The lock still has a very strong mainspring and with the exception of some pitting near the muzzle, the bore is very smooth and clean.  This piece has seen some use, but has been cared for.

Offline James Wilson Everett

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1101
Re: Ketland marked Bess style musket
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2014, 02:55:24 PM »
Guys,

Over the years I have encountered several such muskets that look very similar to a standard military one but are lacking in the proper markings.  My thought is this.  In England, Scotland, Ireland many wealthy estate owners actually had what amounts to a private "army".  When touring these old estates you can still inspect the armoury rooms with many "stands" of muskets/bayonets/pistols.  These are patterned after the current military styles, but without the broad arrow etc.  Anyone who has visited the Governors Palace in Colonial Williamsburg has seen such an amoury in the entrance hallway, very similar to several still existing in England.  I think that this is a private musket that has such an origin.

Jim

Online JV Puleo

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 935
Re: Ketland marked Bess style musket
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2014, 07:39:28 PM »
That is quite true, but the vast majority of such muskets were made for export. Thousands, if not tens of thousands were sold in the US to private citizens in order to satisfy the requirements of the Militia Acts. Relatively few of the contract muskets ordered to "arm the militia" were ever issued... they were kept in reserve against the possibility of war. As an example ... ask yourself what the percentage of converted M1821 flint muskets is compared to those in original flint? Probably 99% were converted and the conversion program was limited to unissued arms only.

Despite the militia contracts of 1792 and 1808, in 1812 the State of Massachusetts had virtually no government issued muskets. In fact, as a matter of policy, arms were not issued to the militia from state stores until 1842.