shockey's gold

[bob in the woods]

I was at a reenactment , and we were asked to do a demonstration of firing our muskets for the public.
The guy beside me fired his "Bess" and the report was noticeably  stiffer than mine [ I had a blank charge of 100 gr FFg in my 10 bore ]   I asked him what he was loading, and he said " Shockey's Gold …easier cleaning , just a bit of water "
I told him it was hardly traditional, and the report was scary !   Pressures ?    I refused to be near him again when firing.
What ever this stuff is, it fires in a flintlock, although I know he primed with 4 F .
Anyone have experience with it ?

[little joe]

Google it and it all comes up,however I have never heard of it.Check the dealers and you will someone 20 miles or so.Several Gander Mts. have it.

[bob in the woods]

I don't want any…and I read the " hype" but am more interested in the pressure side of things from those who may be familiar.   Cleans up with just tap water……so does real black powder !!!  Good grief !   

[galamb]

Shockey's Gold is made by APP (American Pioneer Powder).

APP used to make Pinnacle for Goex before Hodgdon bought out Goex and canned the deal.

Pinnacle is sorta/kinda like 777. 777 uses Gluconic Acid (oxidized sugar) in place of sulfur, Pinnacle used Ascorbic Acid (basically vitamin C) in place of sulfur.

Pinnacle was a slightly modified formula from "Clean Shot" which Hodgdon sued out of existence.

Anyhow, Shockey's Gold is "most likely" the old Pinnacle formula (perhaps tweaked, or not) and marketed as APP's superior powder substitute (their answer to 777).

Although there seems to be a little better quality control on the granule size compared to their other "subs", if you pour some in your hand it still resembles the gravel in my driveway compared to either real black or even the Pyrodex powders.

This stuff is targeted directly at the "non-side hammer shooters" who dump loads of (faux) powder down the barrel and chase it with a plastic wrapped pistol bullet believing the ads (and internet scuttlebutt) that claims you can get CF results in a plastic stocked ML.

(sorry, did that sound sarcastic?) 

[bob in the woods]

Thanks for the info, Graham. I checked, and the "Bess" was one of the models available from India. I'm not comfortable with substitutes making their way into the reenactment scene. I know that we are firing blanks, but I'm not sure of the safety, not to mention the matter of going against the historical aspect of what we are trying to accomplish.
I know that the S.G. gave a much bigger "bang" than my 10 bore with FFg

[Virginiarifleman]

Jim Shockey of the outdoor Channel. uses a TC inline to hunt all over the world. developed his own synthetic powder.  FOR INLINE USE.

[J Henry]

Lot being said there,,,,,,,Inline Shockey   enough written...

[Daryl]

Jim Shockey of the outdoor Channel. uses a TC inline to hunt all over the world. developed his own synthetic powder.  FOR INLINE USE.

Are you sure Jim Shockey developed the powder?  Pretty sure it is a marketing re-branding of an older powder, as noted below by Tim - that sounds familiar, Tim.

edited-

[Topknot]

Correct me if Im wrong, which Im sometimes known to be. It is my understanding that it was originally called simply American pioneer powder. Like I said  it is only my understanding and I could be wrong. I also heard that it wasn't any good , with low viscosity and  many misfires.

                                 topknot

[JTR]

Pressure   ?

How is a Blank load going to develop pressure, much less excess pressure with no projectile to build any pressure.

Scratching head,
John

[WadePatton]

Pressure   ?

How is a Blank load going to develop pressure, much less excess pressure with no projectile to build any pressure.

Scratching head,
John

Wondered if'n anyone was going to address that.  Just goes to show how misunderstood things can be.  Pay attention, think. 
 

[bob in the woods]

I private messaged Mad Monk to get his take on this.  We have had a lot of "talk"  in some circles about reenactor's muskets blowing up with just a blank charge. 

[WadePatton]

Don't some of those guys sometimes use GRO's?  (gun resembling objects).  

Unpacked powder?  or is that the problem---unpacked powder with too much surface area which could result in a detonation instead of a burn?  

I private messaged Mad Monk to get his take on this...

thanks for that.


okay, i read up on it.  no more questions from here.

[Vomitus]

...yet he holds most if not all NA big game muzzleloader records!   How can you not like him,heh heh heh!  
  Added.  I should have said,"He's stolen NA big game muzzleloader Records from Traditional shooters!"

[Virginiarifleman]

Jim Shockey of the outdoor Channel. uses a TC inline to hunt all over the world. developed his own synthetic powder.  FOR INLINE USE.

Are you sure Jim Shockey developed the powder?  Pretty sure it is a marketing re-branding of an older powder, as noted below by Tim - that sounds familiar, Tim.

edited-

I am sure he did not develop it.but I bet he has a load of $ in the Developing of it.

[Mad Monk]

I started a lengthy reply to this thread only to be timed out.  Gggrrr!!!

A bit of history on this thread subject.

When Shockey's Gold first came out it proved to be no faster/stronger than Clean Shot.  It looked like Clean Shot with a yellow dye added.  Ascorbic acid based powders.  A mixture of ascorbic acid and potassium nitrate.  Another in a long seriers of these.

First we Had Golden Powder in the 1980's.  Only on the market for a short time.  Heat treated ascorbic acid.  Very hygroscopic.  With the mixture of ascorbic acid and potassium nitrate you get gases, water and potassium carbonate as products of combustion.  With Golden Powder it produced so much water that it would quickly flood the breech of a percussion rifle.  These ascorbic acid powder were "cool burning".  Producing very little heat during combustion which insured that most of the water would stay in the bore.  This lead to the "self-cleaning parts of the adds.


Mad Monk

[Mad Monk]

When the old Golden Powder folded there was a splitting up of the original group.  Eventually most tried to produce their own version.

After Golden Powder we saw Black Canyon.  It had the habit of turning into a solid mass in the unopened plastic bottle and would smell like rotten lettuce.

After that folded we saw Clean Shot powder out of the same guy.  That folded after loosing a suit to Hodgdon over the sales of Clean Shot in a pellet form.
That was reorganized as American Pioneer Powder.


One of the original Golden Powder partners had tried to start his own version's production.  But could not find investors.  He then switched and developed a fruit sugar based powder that became GOEX's Clear Shot Powder.  What was unique about this was the production from a slurry using candy making machinery.  The "inventor" had originally proposed making Clear Shot in black powder manufacturing machinery.  When GOEX tried it in a wheel mill the wheel mill blew up and killed a supervisor who had been one of the few who made the switch from the closed Moosic, PA black powder plant to the then new plant at Minden.  GOEX then got into the candy masking machinery to produce the powder in a continuous process rather than by a batch process.

Then there was a fire in the Clear Shot production line at Minden that destroyed the building and the machinery.  Those who had helped back GOEX on the costs backed out.  GOEX then looked to American Pioneer Powder who came up with the PInnacle powder.  Noting more than the std. American Pioneer Powder with about 1% of charcoal added to make it look like black powder.  Then when Hodgden  bought GOEX there was no longer a need for the "out of house" sub.


Mad Monk

[Mad Monk]

To continue.

I had always questioned the wisdom of using ascorbic acid in a propellant powder.

Plants, in nature, make ascorbic acid by modifying the basic sugar molecule they produce.  Adding an OH group to the sugar molecule.
In the production of Golden Powder they mixed a solution of potassium nitrate with a solution of ascorbic acid.  Then poured that into a Pyrex baking dish and heated it in an oven.  Literally cooked it.  In the process some of the ascorbic acid was broken down into the basic sugar molecule.

At that time a good ascorbic acid would cost around $9 to $10 per pound.   Fruit sugar costs around a dollar a pound.  Why not just use fruit sugar?

Which is also what the guy who developed Clear Shot finally figured out.
Why fruit sugar?  In a propellant powder the use of fruit sugar will give burn rates faster than that of a cane or beet sugar.  With cane or bet sugar there is a chemical bond between pairs of sugar molecules.  Before the sugar can oxidize, or burn, the bond must be broken.  So having to break the bond before the individual sugar molecules can burn takes energy in the form of heat and slows the combustion process down.

Mad Monk

[Mad Monk]

The group of investors who had been involved in the Golden Powder project spent a lot of time in court arguing over the right to exploit the basic original patent.  This resulted in one off shoot making it to the market.
It was known as Black Mag.  Reputed to be much stronger than the others.  Of course.  It was ascorbic acid with a healthy slug of potassium perchlorate.  Then it went off the market.  Then it was started up again by some guy in a big garage.  When that blew up it was the end of that off shoot product.

Made Monk

[Mad Monk]

As to the "report" of the Brown Bess loaded with Shockey's Gold.

Keep in mind that this is a "cool burning" powder that produces little heat during powder combustion.  In addition.  More of the powder is converted into gases than one sees with black powder.  So it produces a larger volume of gases.  It also burns slower than black powder when not confined.  As in no projectile or heavy wadding.  If you look at these ascorbic acid powders in open burn they don't flash up.  Slow and sparkle.
So most likely it was a point of a large volume of gas over a longer period of time. 

Mad Monk

[bob in the woods]

Thank you very much for your informative reply. I really appreciate it.
Last question….is it safe to stand beside the fellow with the Bess given that he does or did wad with the cartridge paper ?
It sounds from your description of the "burn" , that S. G. behaves like smokeless.  He was loading using a B.P. volume measure i.e. 100 gr  equivalent.  Greater volume of gas would = greater pressure, would it not?

[Mad Monk]

The comparison of the charge of Shockey's Gold and smokeless is not really accurate.

The greater volume of gas does not equate to greater pressure simply because the gases produced by the burning of Shockey's Gold is cold compared to charges of black powder.  Without the heat produced by combustion you have little heat expansion of the gas.  It would be more like a .69 caliber BB gun.

I don't think the amount of paper used for a .69 caliber Brown Bess "cartridge" would produce that much restriction to the gases in the barrel.

I would be more concerned about the Bess having been made in India.  Again.  It has been a bunch of years since I was really active in this stuff but I seem to recall comments about some of the cheap imported Bess models having barrels made from welded seam pipe.  Don't recall exactly which import company was involved in these.

I don't want to sound as if I don't like the reenactment crowd but some of the things I have seen them doe is frightening.  I loaned my one .45 caliber longrifle to a guy doing bit parts in the Rev War series some years back on TV.  Gave it back to me uncleaned after using it in several scene shoots.   Arrrggghhhhh!  Rust and corrosion in the bore.  Corrosion pits in the bore are an invitation for a barrel failure big time.  The little pits in the metal concentrate stresses in very small areas. To a lot of these guys the gun is nothing but another prop.  The idea of properly caring for them never crosses their minds.   

Mad Monk

[bob in the woods]

Thank you for sharing your knowledge.

[WadePatton]

Thank you for sharing your knowledge.

AND HOW!

thanks MM


mebbe we should have a little spot for "items of interest" and "debunked" or  something for great informative posts like this that aren't really tutorials.  BP Mythbusters.

[Daryl]

No one better on this subject than the Mad Monk.