Author Topic: The building foundation (Read 7548 times)

northmn · « **on:** February 10, 2009, 01:20:35 PM »

When building a house they talk about how important the footings are to the rest of the build. Just to see what others may think I will state my own idea. To me on a ML, whether it be half stock or fullstock, fowler or rifle it is the ramrod hole. Or more precisely the distance between the ramrod hole and the barrel channel. If made too thick nothing can compensate for the bulkiness created.

DP

rich pierce · « **Reply #1 on:** February 10, 2009, 04:47:12 PM »

I vote for the buttplate.

George F. · « **Reply #2 on:** February 10, 2009, 04:59:06 PM »

I don't come close to the rifles either of you two, but I will have to agree with the ramrod being the big maker/breaker. I've broken through the ramrod channel on two stocks. ...Geo.

Tony Clark · « **Reply #3 on:** February 10, 2009, 05:22:57 PM »

With a longrifle I would say these 3 things in this order: barrel choice, lock choice and placement, buttplate choice.

Why? Well... your building the gun around the barrel so it's taper, flare, length, weight are going to predetermine in a large way what your going to end up with as far as the shape, length, weight and profile of the gun. The lock choice and placement is going to determine what the shape of the gun will be through the lock panels and wrist. And the buttplate will determine what the shape of the butt will be. Regards, TC

keweenaw · « **Reply #4 on:** February 11, 2009, 12:26:06 AM »

As for that ramrod hole, well you just have to put it in the right place which isn't all that hard if you cut the channel correctly and have a good drill.

Tom

Ken G · « **Reply #5 on:** February 11, 2009, 12:38:15 AM »

I give this a little thought and come up with "the most important part is the part you are working on at the time".
I do agree, the ram rod hole will make you or break you early in the game.

Rich · « **Reply #6 on:** February 11, 2009, 09:36:02 AM »

I haven't built many but I tend to agree with the web thickness. If it gets even a little too thick, not only is the build going to be heavy, but it ends up a little slab sided because there is not enough wall thickness to allow the increased height to be rounded. You also end up with too much wood below the muzzle, or a gap between the nosecap and the ramrod. The extra thickness also works its way back to the wrist. By having the extra thickness, There is too much wood under the lock. It's a mistake that keeps giving. I am restocking my 2nd build because of this problem. I now keep it at 1/8 inch at the muzzle and breach.

Dphariss · « **Reply #7 on:** February 11, 2009, 05:27:42 PM »

Yes the RR hole can cause trouble but its usually fixable.
I have a rifle that is slightly heavy in the forend due to a goof on my part.
Screw up the buttplate bad enough and its tough to make right or even save . The lock position will leave something you have to look at for a long time.
The barrel channel is the foundation. It sets the location for EVERYTHING. Goof this or goof the buttplate installation bad enough and its a killer.

Dan

Tony Clark · « **Reply #8 on:** February 11, 2009, 06:02:25 PM »

I must have misunderstood the intent of your question...after reading your analogy about building a house and the foundation it is built on, well, the foundation a firearm will be built on is its components, barrel, lock, buttplate, seems to me thats the way it is anyway.

Perhaps a better title for this thread would be 'what pitfalls or mistakes a builder should watch out for'. Things like the ramrod hole web thickness falls under my golden rule of : don't leave any more wood then required, anywhere! Buttplate installation is for certain a problem many beginning builders have and for good reason, it can be quite tricky. One error here I see frequently is having the top line of its tang pointing below the line of the comb. If this happens even just a tiny amount it will look real poor. As far as the barrel channel setting the location of everything & being the foundation of the gun...well, it will determine the location the barrel will rest in the stock blank thats for certain! Have a great day! Regards, TC

keweenaw · « **Reply #9 on:** February 11, 2009, 06:11:22 PM »

The reason I won't vote for the ramrod channel is that you drill it on a scratch build after you've inlet the barrel. You start by cutting the exposed part of the channel to the web thickness you want. If you do that correctly the hole will go where you want it to go if you're using a good drill. If the hole does run down a bit you can lower the back of the barrel a bit without much difficulty or if it runs up you can notch the bottom of the barrel for the front lock nail or notch the nail if it impinges in the ramrod channel.

On the other hand, if your butt plate is on at the wrong angle, it's very hard to salvage the butt architecture.

Tom

northmn · « **Reply #10 on:** February 11, 2009, 06:43:05 PM »

The ramrod hole can be fixed to some extent, but if you mess up and end up with a web too thick you cannot fix it. I remember a precarved I got with a 1/4 inch web at least. It looked slab sided as stated and is one reason I do not build from precarved anymore. Really I could make another arguement and say the foundation of a good build, and I am talking about a blank is the centerline, it controls the buttplate ramrod channel, trigger guard placement and about anything you can think of. All the component parts are placed against the center line. The discussion so far has been good as discussion is how we, and myself in particular, learn better techniques. I have changed a lot of my ways and picked up a lot of info, since entering this site.

DP

Acer Saccharum · « **Reply #11 on:** February 11, 2009, 07:25:10 PM »

First thing is barrel placement. From there you determine lock placement, rr hole.
Once lock is place, the trigger locatin is known, then Length of pull can be determined.
So on and so forth.

Barrel is foundation to me.

But here I read rr hole as foundation. Is this because you leave the hole placement as deciding factor, or you let the hole design your gun? Cannot you make the hole where you want it? I cannot agree with letting a hole be such an influence in designing your gun.

You must very carefully plan, and execute this hole. Do not let it run your life. YOU are the one with the tool in your hand, do not accept such attitude from a inanimate hole.

I don't know what came over me.

Nor would I let a buttplate tell me what to do.

Acer Saccharum · « **Reply #12 on:** February 11, 2009, 08:00:43 PM »

A thick web CAN be fixed....inlet the barrel deeper. It's a pain, but it can be done.

rich pierce · « **Reply #13 on:** February 11, 2009, 10:06:49 PM »

I was thinking of it in terms of what has the most impact on architecture; hence the buttplate. I do agree the ramrod hole is the next thing after the barrel inlet and makes a big difference, but Tom Curran (one of our many TC's) is right. With some hard work, you can re-set the barrel deeper. Of course on a pre-carve that will thin the wrist vertically so you really are in a bind and any pre-carve with too thick a web should be rejected. I always inlet the barrel into a rough blank, make the groove and drill the rr hole, then saw the blank to profile. Both TCs have the sequence right as far as the barrel determining everything that follows in a specific order. All that is out the window on a kit or precarve. They decided and you live with it.

t.caster · « **Reply #14 on:** February 11, 2009, 10:28:54 PM »

I agree with TC & TC!

the other TC

Acer Saccharum · « **Reply #15 on:** February 11, 2009, 11:21:57 PM »

I like what the TC's have to say...... (self included, naturally)

But the RP has a point, especially when talking pre-carves..... so thanks for adding that facet, Rich, yet another layer of complication.

Indeed, with a precarve, if you lower the barrel, you can get in trouble with the wrist getting thinner. maybe 1/16 or 1/8 worst case scenario.

This sport is not for the faint of heart, nor the meek, nor those who want something to snap together. There is often one heck of a lot of puzzling and measuring to get yourself out of a situation.

And, RP, the BP has so much to do with the architecture. Is it the foundation? This is something we could discuss over a beer. I'd say it's the sill, but not the foundation. I would have to concede that it could easily set the whole stylistic tone of the gun. More important than the lock or guard.

Acer

rich pierce · « **Reply #16 on:** February 11, 2009, 11:33:30 PM »

The buttplate is the foundation when the gun is standing on it's butt.

Acer Saccharum · « **Reply #17 on:** February 11, 2009, 11:54:01 PM »

Rich, want me to refresh your Avatar?

for references, write Jim Filipski and Brian Dancey.

northmn · « **Reply #18 on:** February 14, 2009, 11:42:55 PM »

I have to admit that the inspiration for starting some of these threads comes out of frustration. Mine is the coordination of knowledge and application. The prime requisite for accuracy is the nut behind the butt. For building its whose behind the chisel. The combination of study and the number of rifles under ones belt. Most of us tend to be something of a perfectionist which at times needs a little tempering. I was ready to ditch a stock blank that seemed to be cursed, but have now gained a certain perspective again and will pick away at it while working on less cursed pieces. The foundation of a good build is the basic gun, the lines, the quality of the inletting and proportions. No amount of engraving or carving can make a pig look elegant. Guiding the chisels and other tools worked better with practice which is coming back.

DP

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Author Topic: The building foundation (Read 7548 times)

northmn

George F.

Tony Clark

keweenaw

Tony Clark

keweenaw

northmn

northmn