Muzzle Radius Tool

[davec2]

I have always liked the way Daryl puts a nice large radius on his muzzles (as pictured near the end of this series of posts

    http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=12383.0 )

However, setting up to crown a muzzle like this in the lathe is always a pain.  So I made this hand tool to quickly put a clean, smooth radius on the edge of the muzzle.  Here is a picture of one of the barrels I have with the standard 45 degree chamfer as it comes from the manufacturer



Here is the tool showing the single radius cutter insert.  The nose / pilot of the tool is 0.0005 under bore size





Here is the tool in use



And here is how the crown looks after a few rotations of the tool.  Actually, this picture looks like a chamfer and does not show how clean the radius is...I need to try to get a better picture...but the radius the tool makes matches the close up picture of the cutter insert.

[Bob Roller]

That is a fine looking and apparently a fine working tool as well.
I have one I made years ago to true the muzzle to 90 degrees
and it works fine. I trued a Sharps '74 muzzle with it at Friendship
and the next shot got a hit on a small target,a chicken I think.
The star burst on a clean muzzle tells the tale with one shot.
Thanks for posting these pictures.

Bob Roller

[David Rase]

Fellow tool junky, that is a nice looking, simple cutting tool.  I like the idea of inner-changeable cutters.  If you did not like the radius you could quickly change out the cutter to what ever crown you wanted.  The cut looks nice and smooth with no chatter.  Do you remember who's barrel that is you crowned?  I would be interested to know if you have had a chance to crown a barrel like Getz produces of 12L14 as well as one of the other manufactures like Ed Rayl who uses 8620.  If so, did you notice any difference in cutting time, finish etc. ?
David

[Acer Saccharum]

I smell a product coming on.....

[Acer Saccharum]

Tool Junkies Unite!

[Bob Roller]

I make screws from 12L14 and will do so today.It machines easily and isn't too fussy about tools.I have made two breech plugs in the past year from 8620 and it seems to have the ease of machining of 1018 but takes a better finish and threads well.The screws I make are all small lock screws so I may not be making a fair comparison.I make on rare occasion a new lead screw for a 6"Atlas lathe that I made into a screw machine 40 years ago and it is from 1/2"12L14 and has 16 threads per inch,a modified Acme thread.
With a tool like was show here today for crowning,a slow start should work OK with any barrels made today including 4150.A drop or ttwo of Tapmatic or some similar brew won't hurt either on any of these barrels.

Bob Roller

[Jim Kibler]

I like your tool and radius.  My preference would be one that is smaller, however.  In looking at original guns, you seldom see much of a crown at all, so I like to keep things as small as possible.  Even barrel manufacturers often use too big of a chamfer for my taste.  I sometimes cut the face back to make things a little smaller.

[jamesthomas]

 Dave that is a very nice tool!, it ought to help make loading easier if you use a tight fitting ball, patch combination.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

That's a great tool Dave, and it obviously does the job well.  But I agree that it a little 'over-kill'.  When I crown a muzzle, I cut just enough to go to the grooves, and then round it with abrasive cloth to polish.  I have a .40 cal that I started the crown off centre, and by the time I got it straight again, I ended up with a deep crown like the one in the picture.  With pre-cut patches, it is a little awkward to keep the ball centred with such a void beneath it, but it loads easily.

[Mark Elliott]

 Add the ability to cut concentric rings around the bore and you will have a winner in my book.

[David Rase]

That's a great tool Dave, and it obviously does the job well.  But I agree that it a little 'over-kill'.  When I crown a muzzle, I cut just enough to go to the grooves, and then round it with abrasive cloth to polish.  I have a .40 cal that I started the crown off centre, and by the time I got it straight again, I ended up with a deep crown like the one in the picture.  With pre-cut patches, it is a little awkward to keep the ball centred with such a void beneath it, but it loads easily.

Taylor,
I have shot with both you and Daryl.  The term "loads easily" is subjective for you two, at least for Daryl.  On a side not, how's the weather up in Prince George?
David

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

That's an interesting observation Dave.  I'm still thinking about that. 

We're at melting temp today, no snow, pleasant weather.  Sunday may be the last day this winter for me to get out and shoot the trail...my hands just cannot handle the cold anymore.

Sorry for 'jacking' this thread...Rase's fault.

[Acer Saccharum]

If you have baseball mitts for hands and gorilla arms, 'loads easily' might be very true.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

It might be something to consider, that Daryl and I are retired cops.  I cannot be sure if it is our nature or training that gives us the resolve to 'git 'er done', and consider it simple routine.  But I have to say, hearing of others' difficulty with that which to us is simple and easy, leaves us scratching our heads.

[davec2]

David R - This was a Rice .50 cal barrel made of 12L14, I'm sure.  I have also made another tool and done the .54 cal Rice that I used for the "Kibler Copy" rifle.  Both cut easily and smoothly with this tool design.  I have not tried it on 8620, but the relief angle on the cutting edge is only about 4 degrees, so I would not expect any trouble with almost any common barrel alloy.

Tom - No product coming here...To make these one at a time would not be worth the effort and to set up to make anything like an economical lot would leave me with a huge number of unsold crowning tools.  I posted this so anyone who needs one can make their own.

Jim K & Taylor - I agree...too much radius.  On both the barrels I did, I was trying to eradicate the heavy 45 degree chamfer that Rice put on the barrels at the factory and blend it into a nice smooth radius.  I will see how these barrels load and shoot.  If I don't like it, I will trim the muzzles back some, but I don't think it will make much difference except for the aesthetics.  A few years ago, I tried the much longer conning that caught my eye at the time and used these tools that I had ground:



The spiral one (right hand cut, left hand spiral) worked much better than the straight one that I copied from a drawing that Peter Alexander had put in an article he wrote for one of the BP magazines.  (I knew it would work better than the straight cutter, but I had to try).  At any rate, I have used the spiral one on several rifles....the brass pilots are interchangeable.... and it works great.  I don't want to open the "to cone or not to cone...that is the question" debate here, but it has worked fine for me.  However, I think I like the short, smooth radius better now.

Mark E - Rings on the muzzle are easy...just need to grind a simple cutter with one or more points, mount it in the tool, and twirl it around.

[Mark Elliott]

Ok,  you have just about sold me.   You just need a solution for different size bores.   What about a main pilot for 40 cal and screw on sleeves?

[davec2]

Mark,

My original thought was to make a tool with interchangeable pilots, but I wanted the slot that supports the cutter to extend into the pilot.  Trying to make interchangeable pilots with a mating cutter slot was more trouble than making a tool for each caliber I needed.  I'm sure there is a way to make one tool with changeable pilots, but I just made 4 of them for .45, .50, .54, and .58 calibers.

[Mark Elliott]

I would rather have 40, 45, 50, and 54.   I always have to be different.     How much do you think they will cost?

[Daryl]

Cool Too. Dave. 

Guys, if you hold down the control button (PC) and scroll the mouse button or use the + key at the same time, you can enlarge the picture and actually see the nice radius on the top of the lands making for a nice 'easy' load. holding the control key and - button will reduce the size - holding the control button and pushing the ZERO "0" button will return an enlarged or reduced page to your normal settings.

 Picked up on these hints right here, long time ago.

Taylor is right in stating we liked to get it done with one smack, but then, it was usually used a closed fist like the "Hammer of Thor" - - just kidding? Some guns require a heavier smack that others. The 14 bore comes to mine with a .030" patch and .684" ball.

Anyway, the crown looks good, Dave, but is a mite deep.  The .40 Taylor spoke of, was difficult to keep the ball from rotating as any stiffness in the patch would make it ride up off the lands, then turn as you shoved it down to engage them.  It could be just fine with larger sizes, as in heavier balls though.

[Dphariss]

If you have baseball mitts for hands and gorilla arms, 'loads easily' might be very true.

Hey not our fault if people are not in shape.
 
Could not resist.

I think there is an idea that people should be able to load a ML with little or no effort. Frankly this is silly. One must engrave the ball with the patch to get any accuracy.

Dan

[Larry Pletcher]

Hey Dan,
I'm glad you were joking at least a little.  It does take some effort to engrave the ball, and at the age of many of us, we do have to work at it harder than we did 30 years ago.  Then too a few of us are trying to hang on to the sport in spite of injuries and surgeries that were less that a success.

I find myself, all too often, using my head to solve problems caused by physical issues.  I can load from a pouch without a mallet, but I make do with other adaptions.  For instance, the schimmel that Allen Martin made me is a lot easier to handle that the 10 lb Lancaster that I used to shoot.  I like Daryl and Taylor's muzzle crown.  I use a short starter, but envy the fellows that can start a tight load with only the ramrod.

Dave, I like your crowning tool - it's the kind of thing that keeps fellows like me shooting longer. 

Dan, Daryl, Taylor, I will continue to learn and adapt to keep having fun with flintlocks.  Keep the tricks coming.
Regards,
Pletch

[Dphariss]

The age thing is a PITA. Getting older is not for sissies. Getting a deer out to the road is not as much fun as it used to be. If it ever was....

Dan

[Dphariss]

I cut most crowns on a lathe sometimes I do a two angle like this 58 caliber.

I cut the exterior crown then reset the tool and put a different angle in the lands.
This is on a hunting rifle.

Sometimes I do them by hand. Its not rocket science but the person doing it has to understand what he is trying to do
Dan

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

My girls call me a 'weekend warrior'.  I do nothing all year, apart from my normal life, and then go hunting in the fall.  After I knock down a moose in or around the 1000 pound variety, I swing a chain saw for several hours to cut a trail in to the critter, and haul the timber out of the way to get a quad to the bull.  Then it's a dead lift of way over a hundred pounds to get the pieces onto the transport, and unload it at the other end into a truck.  Then all the parts get hung on the meat pole for the duration of the hunt, then taken down again and put back into the truck.  Then out of the truck again at the butcher's and finally, cart boxes of frozen larder to the freezer.  All this happens only once a year, and all at once.  

My daughter who is a Registered Massage Therapist has been the only reason I can still do anything like this.  But she told me this fall, that if I wreck my back again - ever - I will likely be a cripple for the rest of my life.  Food for thought.  I did not hunt this fall.  I'll be 66 in December.  I may have to forget about moose hunting altogether, and concentrate on deer.

[Mark Elliott]

Taylor,

You can still stalk and shoot the moose.   You will just have to hire a couple of teenage porters to do the hard work.   My younger brother got him one.   I really need to get one.   Although,  I ask my brother to help and he brings along his help if needed.