Author Topic: Expanding use of the term "Moravian" - what does it / should it mean?  (Read 12325 times)

Offline blienemann

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I offer this topic respectfully, and hope it's received in same manner.  While this deals with history, it responds to topics and comments usually found in Gun Building, and hope it fits here.

Use of the term"Moravian" has blossomed to describe all sorts of components, parts sets and stocked firearms, especially in the past 5 years.  I do not mean to pick on any individual now or from the past with these comments.  The term shows up everywhere, and is often associated with a beautiful new rifle or other arm which I'd be proud to own.  It may be a cool trend, or suggest added value in some way?  I'm just curious as to what is meant / what is conveyed by this term.

Having studied the Unitas Fratrum or "Moravian" communities, everyday life and the men and boys who stocked and repaired arms, the style of their products varied widely.  The inventories show English and German locks and barrels concurrently, and their work included both influences concurrently.  So much for German locks on PA rifles and English locks in the South, since their wagons ran regularly from Bethlehem to Salem, along with the men and boys.  They repaired many more arms than they built new, with that melting pot of design. Their customers were diverse.   

Some lived in a closed community, where much of trade and life was regulated - until 1762 when those communities privatized.  Others simply went to a church on Sunday or were visited by a traveling preacher.  Most of the locksmiths and gunstockers of Lancaster and York attended that church when it was built, but they had already learned their trades, and the building had no influence on their style.  The work done at Bethlehem and Christian's Spring evolved over time, but often varied from that done at Lancaster at the same time.

Is referring to a Moravian (rifle) similar to saying a Lutheran rifle, or a Reformed rifle?  Does it refer to the variety of examples shown in the recent Moravian Gunmaking . . . book?  Those examples cover men and styles from different areas over maybe 30 years.  If someone is "building a Moravian rifle, but unlike anything they built" - what does that mean?  That it borrowed from some known rifle, but shows some new thinking or a different carving design?  This term Moravian, like "transitional rifle" may be so broad that it's not easily understood.

I think it might be better to say that a product or project is "similar to Antes and those he worked with", or Albrecht, Oerter, Dickert or one of many others who lived very different lives, but wound up in a Moravian cemetery.  Or perhaps a rifle / smooth rifle / pistol that could have been made at C's Spring, or at Lancaster during a given period.  Then we can go to those examples and try to learn, along with the builder.

Thanks, and happy to hear your thoughts.

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Expanding use of the term "Moravian" - what does it / should it mean?
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2015, 06:13:54 AM »
Terrific topic.  Years ago we said "Christians Spring- styled rifle" when we were referring to guns attributed to the Moravian gunsmiths of eastern Pennslyvania. A good many of these guns are not signed but attributed.  And scholars have differed in the attribution of specific guns, even on whether the rifle we call "RCA 42" was made in Pennsylvania or North Carolina, for example.  With so many unsigned early guns with hallmark motifs that link them together, and no way of being certain whether they were made in Bethelehem, Christians Spring, or Lititz in Pennsylvania, or Batharbara North Carolina, it has become fashionable to refer to the originals as "Moravian" because that much seems likely.

More so with contemporary rifles based in part on unsigned rifles, that have some characteristics of this original rifle, some of that, and some creative bits.  A trend I do not understand is to call any step-wristed early-styled contemporary rifle "Moravian", which seems to happen sometimes.

Still, I prefer almost anything to the term "transitional rifle" because it seems to me the longrifle has always been in transition.
Andover, Vermont

Online smart dog

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Re: Expanding use of the term "Moravian" - what does it / should it mean?
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2015, 04:14:32 PM »
Hi Bob,
Thank you for your post and I agree.  Perhaps we should call rifles made within the fringes of the Great Smokies, Presbyterian or Southern Baptist rifles.  There is a profusion of "English" and "Early Virginia" guns out there that make my head spin regarding what is English or early Virginia about them.  Of course, there are features that can clearly identify an 18th or early 19th century English product but I am still very unclear about "early Virginia".  Regardless, I fear that your excellent book on Moravian gunmaking will be misconstrued as defining a style of guns rather than a history of the work and culture associated with a diverse group of makers, who happen to be Moravians.

dave   
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Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Expanding use of the term "Moravian" - what does it / should it mean?
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2015, 05:30:14 PM »
This is an interesting topic. I have seen a number of guns become 'fad' guns, ones that everyone wants to build, and then the interest moves on. Most prominent in my memory are "Hawken-guns', the "Isaac Haines", and the "Lancaster'. Often, the fads are based on a popular movement, or a specific gun a prominent builder has made, but not a lot of the culture or history of the fad gun becomes part of the conversation.

I built a 'Moravian' smooth rifle years back, probably wishing to add some mystery or value to it by attaching the Moravian name to it. I knew just enough about the Moravians to set chisel to wood, and that was good enough for me!


In hindsight, I realize that I appreciate the history and the culture that is behind a certain object. So I look forward to this conversation developing.
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kaintuck

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Re: Expanding use of the term "Moravian" - what does it / should it mean?
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2015, 06:25:02 PM »
'Ken' makes the most beautiful ones i know of......so much so, my next is a copy of his last one he made...brass PB etc~'c' weight 54cal rice bbl.....

interesting......

marc n tomtom

Offline fm tim

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Re: Expanding use of the term "Moravian" - what does it / should it mean?
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2015, 10:56:35 PM »
See:

Moravian Gun Making of the American Revolution
The Kentucky Rifle Assoc.
Published by Eastwind Publishing
4302 Baildon Road
Trappe, MD 21673

Also PM Eastwind on this board

Online smart dog

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Re: Expanding use of the term "Moravian" - what does it / should it mean?
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2015, 01:31:49 AM »
Hi fm tim,
Are you aware that blienemann is a coauthor of the book you recommend?

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Expanding use of the term "Moravian" - what does it / should it mean?
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2015, 02:34:43 AM »
LSNED.  Learn something new every day.   ;D
Andover, Vermont

Offline fm tim

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Re: Expanding use of the term "Moravian" - what does it / should it mean?
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2015, 02:56:51 AM »
OOps!

Offline Robby

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Re: Expanding use of the term "Moravian" - what does it / should it mean?
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2015, 03:39:10 AM »
A wonderful book blienemann, thank you!!
Robby
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Offline Mark Elliott

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Re: Expanding use of the term "Moravian" - what does it / should it mean?
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2015, 03:53:19 AM »
I am afraid I am one of those guilty of using the term Moravian to refer to guns of the style of Albrecht, Oerter, and early Dickerts.    I would have previously used the term Christian Springs to describe this style.   Actually it was the book mentioned and Wallace Gusler's various discussions regarding the attribution of RCA #42 and other guns from the Valley of Virginia that lead me to start using the word Moravian instead.   Based on my understanding (perhaps incorrect) of the new information (perhaps also incorrect) presented,  it seemed a better way of describing a style that seemed to include a number of builders of a given period and association stretching from PA to NC.  I actually never meant to imply any particular religious belief to the builders of the rifle or attribute any style to religious principles.

After having been called to task for that, albeit in a tactful way,   I will start to refer instead to the style of a particular rifle or builder during a particular period if the consensus is that is a better way to do it.    I guess you may attribute the use of the term Moravian to the danger of a little knowledge.   Of course,  I can only speak for myself.

Offline KLMoors

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Re: Expanding use of the term "Moravian" - what does it / should it mean?
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2015, 05:31:56 AM »
Yup, guilty here too!  I think I use it mostly because other people know what I am talking about when I use the term.  The terms Christians Spring and Moravian paint a picture in my mind of certain rifles made by those folks in that early timeframe. I tend to blend detailing from similar guns, as opposed to copying a particular piece, so I tend towards more general terms of description. This also allows me some creative slack, as I usually imagine the gun being built by an anonymous builder of the day, who has been influenced by the styling of the more prominent builders.

I agree also that a location name would be more fitting-  such as Christians Spring. But, for me, I wouldn't want to claim "in the style of Albrecht", as my knowledge base isn't up to claiming that level of expertise.

kaintuck

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Re: Expanding use of the term "Moravian" - what does it / should it mean?
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2015, 06:11:59 AM »
Ok ok.....I will say the "😉Christians springs" riffle, Ken.....your still "da man"!!!! In the looks of the rifle dept of these....

Semantics sometimes, area type rifle name, I just like the period of rifle changes, these just before the long lanky slim rifles......

Marc n tomtom

Online bob in the woods

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Re: Expanding use of the term "Moravian" - what does it / should it mean?
« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2015, 06:26:34 AM »
Actually, it is " Christians Spring "  The "spring " is not plural.  Sorry….a pet peeve of mine  ::)

kaintuck

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Re: Expanding use of the term "Moravian" - what does it / should it mean?
« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2015, 06:35:13 AM »
Actually, it is " Christians Spring "  The "spring " is not plural.  Sorry….a pet peeve of mine  ::)

But if it's old...It would be in the past...past tense would be Christian sprung?

 :D ;D

I an tomtom are building a Christian sprung riffle.........

Ahahahahahahaaaaa.....

Online bob in the woods

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Re: Expanding use of the term "Moravian" - what does it / should it mean?
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2015, 07:25:16 AM »
 ;D ;D  Good one !

Offline blienemann

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Re: Expanding use of the term "Moravian" - what does it / should it mean?
« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2015, 08:17:30 AM »
I appreciate the conversation.  BTW, I did not intend any religious sensitivity, though it’s good to be respectful, as Moravian congregations continue.  Their members would wonder “what on earth a Moravian” was/is, referring to a rifle!  I remember showing a magazine ad for a “Christian’s Spring rifle” to the director and curator of the Moravian Hist Soc some years back.  They chuckled, and wondered what made it fit that title?  The rifle was a generic Lancaster style, but the term was borrowed to add mystery and value?   

Some think that “Moravian” implies an early rifle.  A friend wrote to say “ ‘Moravian’ is just a description of the early eastern Pa. longrifle built in or near Christian Springs Pa. Usually step wristed, thick and beefy, these guns were the beginning of the Pa longrifle . . . were or are called Moravian, Christian Springs or Transitional rifles.”

The gunshop at Bethlehem, then moved to C’s Spring operated from about 1750 through 1790.  At least some rifles made there had the buttplate tang inlet into comb and a stepped wrist. As time passed the step faded, rifles slimmed, locks and mounts changed, an arrowhead sideplate.  New men and boys explored new ideas like wire in lieu of carving.  So even if we use Bethlehem or C’s Spring as a descriptor, it’s helpful to use an approximate time period.   

Wm Henry, Jr ran the shop after Christian Oerter became ill in 1776, but left and moved two miles to Nazareth.  The pair of pistols he made are 1770 English in style and probably made soon after his move.  Since the shop had mixed imported components, they probably repaired, restocked and stocked new arms in a variety of styles.  Also built muskets to the pattern, and perhaps some military rifles to a pattern during the War years. 

Rifles made at Lancaster, Reading and Lebanon did not generally have a stepped wrist, the buttplate tang was not inlet, and their work also changed over time.  These men also considered themselves Moravians at some level.  Beck moved to North Carolina in 1764, and Albrecht to Lititz in 1771, but their rifles probably did not change profoundly on the day they arrived.  Again, time and place help us imagine what they might have stocked.

In my case, “Moravian” is just so broad that it doesn’t tell me what the builder is channeling.  A “stepped wrist Bethlehem / C’s Spring rifle ca 1760” is descriptive.  Or an Oerter 1775 rifle with wire in lieu of carving, or a Dickert / Graeff / Gonter Lancaster style ca 1770.  Then we can compare new work to the old, and appreciate your interpretation.

“Transition” has the same issues for me, since rifles were always in transition.   Change from European trained to colonial design is a fascinating topic – the signed I Berlin rifle comes to mind, as it seems a fully developed, long and slim American rifle but still with that wide butt and fantastic old world carving.  Or transition from wood box to brass with all those interesting lids, latches and springs.  Transition in style when Henry Albright went from Lancaster to Chambersburg - or from another current post, how a “Lancaster rifle” changed from 1760 to the western fur trade ca 1830.  Bob


Offline alex e.

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Re: Expanding use of the term "Moravian" - what does it / should it mean?
« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2015, 02:31:16 PM »
My goodness!! Research??? You bunch of heretics!! :o

 I applaud topics such as these. Very few can back their work or kit with the proper documentation. To some it is important, to others, not so.
Uva uvam videndo varia fit

Offline Lucky R A

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Re: Expanding use of the term "Moravian" - what does it / should it mean?
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2015, 02:43:59 PM »
    Alas, I am afraid that a proper system of terminology has not yet been established.  We all struggle to come up with proper terms.  Geographical location seems to play into the rich variety of terms used.  In one area a "stepped toe" means the very same as a "stepped wrist" in another area.  I build a lot of Bucks Co. guns, many new builders and parts component bundlers reference these a "Verner rifles."  Verner certainly was one of the Bucks Co. builders, from who there are two known signed pieces.   Bucks Co. style rifles were surely built  by many others,  some beyond the present borders of present day Bucks Co.  Many makers  produced guns that were a crossover of styles, from Berks & Lehigh Counties, further confusing things.  
     As you indicate today the term "Moravian" is applied to many styles that have little in common with the guns originally produced by Albrecht, Oerter and others who initially worked at the Moravian gun shop at Christian Springs.   These would be the guns that I would term "Early transitional, Christian Springs or Moravian for lack of a better term.  Those who have studied a particular style extensively will always look to find as many details associated with that style as possible in a particular example.  Others not so studied, will be content to include a couple of details, and declare the product "in the spirit of whatever style."  It is all in what you want to get out of your gun building and your historical study.   We have come a very long way since the renaissance of the Longrifle.  The study continues, and that is why new books are published continually and why we participate in this forum.  

All the best,
Ron
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Hessian

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Re: Expanding use of the term "Moravian" - what does it / should it mean?
« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2015, 05:14:24 PM »
I can bring nothing to this discussion other than a healthy thirst for the knowledge contained within. It seems that we as humans want to categorize and pigeon hole everything in order to better understand a thing. I suppose that the rifles/weapons of a particular time and region would be as diverse as the men who made them. That being said, I think that the defining characteristic/s would be what worked. I picture "Moravians" as a sturdy, hard working, practical, people and I think their rifles would reflect that.
So is it safe to say that a "Moravian" rifle is one in the style of Christian's Spring with a stepped wrist, thick butt, larger bore, robust but refined features, etc. I imagine a sort of  "Jager" with a longer barrel. Am I completely off the mark.
Like I said, I am but a tenderfoot on this journey, trying to increase my own meager knowledge of something Iknow little about.
Hessian

Online smart dog

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Re: Expanding use of the term "Moravian" - what does it / should it mean?
« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2015, 05:45:05 PM »
Hi,
I don't think Bob Lienemann or any other poster believes that someone should feel guilty about using the term "Moravian gun".  I don't think there is any moral issue implied.  It is just that Moravian gunmakers worked in many styles such that the term can hardly have a precise meaning, unlike, for example, "Shaker" furniture.

Coincidentally,  I am currently repairing some rifles made by re-enactors in the late 1970s.  Compared to the high standards exhibited by many builders who frequent this site, the historical accuracy, design, and construction of those guns are terrible.  That is important because, to this day, the guns are presented to the public as examples of 18th century rifles.  However, during the 1970's, builders and hobbyists did not have the internet with which to share knowledge.  Most worked in relative isolation with little guidance except for a few "how to" books.  Today, we all have a wealth of information at our fingertips and in books if we care to look, and little excuse to be as historically naive as those 1970's builders.  There is a down side, however, to those avenues of information, particularly the internet.  If information can be widely and rapidly shared, so can misinformation.   The meanings of casually-used terms can be morphed to the point of losing meaning and go viral.  If captured by commercial interests, meaning may have no meaning beyond an effective marketing ploy (e.g., TC "Hawken", TVM "Early Virginia").  The result is that instead of contributing information, reliable information is lost.  In my opinion, we owe it to ourselves and future gunmakers and students of historical firearms, to be careful and precise about the terms we use but there certainly is no law that says we have to.

dave
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Offline Mark Elliott

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Re: Expanding use of the term "Moravian" - what does it / should it mean?
« Reply #21 on: January 13, 2015, 06:26:16 PM »
Dave,

My use of the word "guilty" is a bit of hyperbole.   I don't actually feel guilty for using the term "Moravian"; especially since most of the folks around here knew exactly what I meant.   However,   I will endeavor to be a bit more precise in the future, lest I corrupt impressionable minds.   ;)    Of course,  when one tries to explain to anyone outside our circle, the precise inspiration for a piece of our work,  their eyes generally glaze over from information overload.  To them it is just a pretty gun, and that is all they remember. 
« Last Edit: January 13, 2015, 06:31:09 PM by Mark Elliott »

Online smart dog

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Re: Expanding use of the term "Moravian" - what does it / should it mean?
« Reply #22 on: January 13, 2015, 07:04:52 PM »
Hi Mark,
I understand the hyperbole.  By the way, you are one of the makers I had in mind when referring to the high standards exhibited by folks on this site.  You do great work.

" Of course,  when one tries to explain to anyone outside our circle, the precise inspiration for a piece of our work,  their eyes generally glaze over from information overload.  To them it is just a pretty gun, and that is all they remember."

To paraphrase Sherlock Holmes: "many observe, few see." 

dave
« Last Edit: January 13, 2015, 08:15:41 PM by smart dog »
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Offline rich pierce

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Re: Expanding use of the term "Moravian" - what does it / should it mean?
« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2015, 11:25:57 PM »
I think we could ask similar questions about what people mean when they say:
Early Virginia
Early Lancaster
Late Lancaster
Berks County
York
Hawken
Southern Mountain rifle
Virginia rifle
Tennessee rifle

Are these less ambiguous because a specific style definitely comes to mind?
Bucks county rifle
Lehigh rifle
Bedford rifle

Probable reasons for generic terms:
1) precarves
2) kits
3) catalogues
Andover, Vermont

Offline Robby

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Re: Expanding use of the term "Moravian" - what does it / should it mean?
« Reply #24 on: January 14, 2015, 01:21:28 AM »
I have used the term 'Moravian' to describe a rifle I made recently, and posted here. I wasn't trying to be trendy or anything, it was just the way I saw it and what was in my minds eye through the whole process. I think the term evokes a general style of gun, maybe a Christian Springs, maybe a Lancaster, or even a Virginia type gun, but all early in configuration. Its just a broader term for guns that may fall into that category, and can be further identified by its configuration to a more specific location but it can still be a Moravian in its nuances.
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=21206.0
I think when I posted it people may have had expectations and upon seeing it they began to flesh out their own interpretations of origin. Am I missing something?
Robby
molon labe
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