English Gentleman's Sporting Rifle Photos ?

[James Rogers]

I expect feltwad is referring to very late flint and percussified rifles. That seems to be his love and main focus of study from past posts. I see the very wide wrist gridwork getting some steam in the fourth quarter of the 18th century on English pieces.
As much as I like joke about it the fact is that without those migrant foreign workers coming into the English firearms picture beginning in the late 17th century, we would not be researching building any of them : )

[Feltwad]

Mr Rogers
 Strong words but after 66 years of collecting and restoring antique weapons of all periods I think I have some idea what I am talking about.
Feltwad

[Old Ford2]

To RossN

You mention the absence of left handed guns. It could be the superstitions of left handed people during those times.
Here in North America lefties were discouraged in schools right up to the 1950's.
Perhaps that was influenced in the gun making as well?
I am overwhelmed at the fine work it this topic.
Thank you all!
Fred

[gumboman]

RossN
Like the sight. I will have to do a similar thing on a Haines build I have in progress. How is the sight attached? Screw? Dovetail?
Can you add more pictures of the sight close up?
Thanks

[James Rogers]

Mr Rogers
 Strong words but after 66 years of collecting and restoring antique weapons of all periods I think I have some idea what I am talking about.
Feltwad

I think you may have seriously misinterpreted the intent of my post. Only my first sentence was in reference to you. It may well be my misinterpretation of YOUR posts but in past conversations I seem to remember late flint and percussion was your forte.
What most associate as the English sporting rifle did not solidify characteristics until the late flint period in my opinion. I see heavy mimic and even comment as to "in the German manner" prior and that was not just in reference to a rifled bore.
If you are referring to my comment about foreign migrants in the English gun trade, that was having to do with prior banter between myself and a few others on this board some time ago. French and Dutch influence, directly into the English trade along with English restraint, IMO was the catalyst for what the guns came to be. I do agree that in the days of the evolved English sporting rifle, the continental elements you mention are not present in them.  Sorry to have offended.

[Robby]

RossN, I like the clean line of your rifle, the fact that it is correct handed is a nice bonus. Like gumboman, I would like some more information on the sight itself, and if it is working out for you.
Robby

[davec2]

RossN,

Thank you for the pictures.  I intend to use a very similar rear sight as pictured in an old post of mine....

Some time back I was perusing photos of a large bore English rifle built by one of my favorite contemporary makers, Stephen Alexander.  This rifle had a rear "ghost ring" sight mounted very close to the breech which peaked my interest.  I made up some dummy sights and glued them to the barrel of a build I am working on and I love the sight picture through them.  In querying Stephen on the rear sight, he told me that this type of sight was frequently used on Turkish flint firearms and on some English and Continental ones as well.  Does any one out there have any more information or examples of similar rear sights used in the 18th or early 19th centuries?

Thanks






Here is the whole thread - some interesting responses from others to my question:  http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=27794.0

[acorn20]

Dave,

That's a very fine looking sight.  I don't suppose you have a picture of it looking down the barrel from the breech so that we might see the actual sight profile?  Thanks.

Dan

[KLMoors]

Hi Dave. I don't know if this will add much to what you've already got, but here is the link to the Twigg inspired rifle I did a while ago.

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=27955.0

[Mike Brooks]

Folding peep sight English ca 1670's breech loading rifle.

[T*O*F]

Mike,
I wonder if those holes were drilled cockeyed to correct a problem or was the builder just lousy at centering things up.  It seems inconsistent with the care that English builders normally used.

[WadePatton]

Mike,
I wonder if those holes were drilled cockeyed to correct a problem or was the builder just lousy at centering things up.  It seems inconsistent with the care that English builders normally used.

Yeah, at first glance it looks downright goofy/sloppy/awful. But as I think about it, could it be to accommodate the slight movement of ones head up/down (unsquare as it may be) to use the different apertures?  

even then it does look a bit

awful.    Looks like maybe the middle hole was laid out and drilled proper, then later a hack added the upper and lower holes. 

[Feltwad]

Have come across a simular type of back sight I thought it was too allow for windage at long range {any comments}
Feltwad

[Mike Brooks]

Could be these holes were drilled off and they actually shoot to point of aim....I'm guessing. It is a 12 bore so it may shoot a little odd at distance. I believe the entire rear sight to be original to the gun including the sight leaf.
 OR, The guy was sloppy like me and that's just where the holes ended up.
 I wouldn't mind doing something like this to a future rifle for myself.

[WadePatton]

Have come across a simular type of back sight I thought it was too allow for windage at long range {any comments}
Feltwad

try this one out:

Maker drilled the hole that is centered.  When shooter added holes he incorporated windage adjustments.  If he got it right, then the top and bottom holes would be "on" and only the original hole would require sight picture adjustment.  

In my mind that straightens the line between the holes. 

Still, i'd likely drilled a new leaf (or hired it done), but i'm funny like that. (other ways too   )

You know if you remove the bottom hole, the top two don't look so bad. 

I do expect to utilize a peep-sight of some sort in the future, when i can't see to use the "V".

[Bob Roller]

Could be these holes were drilled off and they actually shoot to point of aim....I'm guessing. It is a 12 bore so it may shoot a little odd at distance. I believe the entire rear sight to be original to the gun including the sight leaf.
 OR, The guy was sloppy like me and that's just where the holes ended up.
 I wouldn't mind doing something like this to a future rifle for myself.

 That sight looks like a botched job to me. Just how FAR does anyone shoot a 12 gauge rifle
that windage is needed? I can understand a .451 Rigby with adjustable sights for drift and
maybe windage but this is at 500 or more yards.

Bob Roller

[Ky-Flinter]

....... Folding peep sight English ca 1670's breech loading rifle.

Breech loading?  Now I'm really confused.  Very cool sight, thanks for posting it.

-Ron

[Bob Roller]

....... Folding peep sight English ca 1670's breech loading rifle.

Breech loading?  Now I'm really confused.  Very cool sight, thanks for posting it.

-Ron

 I have seen a picture of a breech loading wheel lock,an OLD one.It worked by
tipping the breech block to the left and inserting a loaded cartridge that locked
into a slot made for it.It was in essence,a locking lug with a flash hole and fired
by the lock.There might be similar systems fired by the later,easier to make
flintlock but I am certain of the one with the wheel lock.

Bob Roller

[Ky-Flinter]

Thanks Bob.  I know there were breech loading guns long ago.  I was referring to the specific gun in the picture Mike posted.  I'm not seeing how that rifle would be loaded from the breech.

-Ron

[Dan'l 1946]

Thanks Bob.  I know there were breech loading guns long ago.  I was referring to the specific gun in the picture Mike posted.  I'm not seeing how that rifle would be loaded from the breech.

-Ron

With great patience and effort?
                                Dan

[Mike Brooks]

Thanks Bob.  I know there were breech loading guns long ago.  I was referring to the specific gun in the picture Mike posted.  I'm not seeing how that rifle would be loaded from the breech.

-Ron

Pics are worth a thousand words. I owned this gun for about a year, bought it locally from the largest gun auction house in the world. Was described as a wall gun with a swivel lug.....
This gun came out of the famous Kieth Niel collection in England in the 1990's. Last I heard it's back in England. This is a really exceptional example of English gun period of the 1670's-80's. I believe James Rogers knows who made it, I don't recall at the moment. You'll notice it's a 1/2 stock and has testicles.... It is published in several books.



More pictures here.
https://smg.photobucket.com/user/Gunmaker/library/english%20doglock%20breechloader?sort=3&page=1

[Feltwad]

The flintlock breech loading rifle in my collection is similar to the one above but the sight is the loading plug  and to me is later see images
Feltwad

[Old Ford2]

Folding peep sight English ca 1670's breech loading rifle.

That sight looks perfect to me 

[RossN]

Hi Gents. Sorry for the late reply, I have been away hunting over what is, in New Zealand, a long weekend. My camera is on the blink, but I will get photo's up in short(ish) order.

I do like using the sight. I modeled it on the flip battle sights on the #4 Lee Enfield, and it works a treat with a silver fore sight.