Breech Plug Question

[ejcrist]

I assembled a TVM flintlock kit about three years ago and it came with the breech plug installed and the vent liner installed. I'm now putting together a Jim Chambers kit. The barrel has the breech plug installed but the vent hole will have to be drilled and tapped for the liner. Everything I've read online so far said you have to remove the breech plug to drill the liner hole so the drill bit doesn't hit the breech plug and break, so you have to remove the plug and re-install after the liner is installed. Is that true? I'd think if the bit hit the plug you'd have a  problem on your hands because that would mean the plug would prevent the vent hole from reaching the main charge in the barrel. If anyone could point me in the right direction with this I'd appreciate it. My hope is that I can leave the plug in place and simply drill the vent hole.

Thanks, Gene

[Long John]

Gene,

I have found so many short-comings in the fitted breech-plugs from the manufacturer that I always remove the breech plug, polish the face and then refit it, regardless of the manufacturer of the barrel.  That's the way I do things.  I'm too old to change!

You can drill for a vent liner without breaking the drill bit.   You just take your time, keep the drill nice and square and the drill will cut the breech plug steel just as well as the barrel steel (its the same alloy).  But if the vent is too far back it will enter the barrel behind the face of the breech plug.  This will result in the need to notch the breech plug face to try to achieve reliable ignition.  (Numerous original arms had notched breech plug faces but notching allows fouling to get into the space between the male and female threads of the breech plug - not good!)  So careful measuring is needed to ensure that the vent is far enough forward of the breech plug face  to allow the vent liner hole to be threaded without encroaching on the breech plug face, yet still be centered in the opening of the pan against the barrel wall.  Some times it is necessary when using a pre-carved stock to move the barrel back in the stock to accommodate all of the measurements.

I normally use the 5/16ths-28 white lightning vent liner positioned with its center-line 1/4th inch forward of the breech plug face.

I hope this helps.

Best Regards,

J. Cholin

[ejcrist]

Thanks much for the info J. Do you have a special wrench to remove the plug or can you just use a large wrench with some sort of liner? Now that I think about it, it would probably be a good thing to remove the plug and see what's going on inside, like when the liner is installed if it's protruding into the barrel. 

[chubby]

Be careful when drilling with the plug in, the drill could push off the plug face causing your hole to egg shape, and your liner will not seal tight!! mark it take out the plug and drill with your drill n tap. replace the plug and check location to plug face and the width of the liner in barrel you will need! hope this helps. Chubby!!

[PPatch]

For breech plug removal I use a hefty old timey smooth faced adjustable wrench, you could get by with a larger modern adjustable, smooth faced. You might have to use a length of pipe to lengthen the handle and provide more leverage (pipe slides over the handle, maybe two foot long). Be SURE not to mar the upper part, top, of the Tang, clamp the wrench jaws below that area. It unscrews counter-clockwise. (Moderator correction.) The breech plug on Chambers (Sold by his daughter who's company is Buckeye barrels) are exactly 1/2 inch into the barrel. I too remove the plug and check for fit and and then polish the face. Polishing the face makes for easier cleaning as the residue comes off without much effort.

When setting up to drill the White Lighting hole carefully locate and punch dead center of the flat, level the barrel at that end so you have the bit entering squarely. Do drill all the way on that side of the barrel but when you tap for the threads stop before you go all the way through, this allows the liner to seat firmly but not protrude into the inside of the barrel. Hack saw off the waste then carefully file the liner face flat.

Good luck, go easy on that tang top, you may need to gently tap the wrench handle to get the plug moving.

dave

[ejcrist]

Dave - Thanks much for the detailed explanation. Very much appreciated!

[Acer Saccharum]

What Chubby says: hitting the breech face partially will cause the drill to shift away from center. You MUST have the right size hole, because the liner threads are fine. An oversized hole will cause the thread engagement to be reduced.

[Maalsral]

A pipe wrench works goods to remove a breech plug. Put a cloth around it to protect it.

[WadePatton]

A pipe wrench works goods to remove a breech plug. Put a cloth around it to protect it.

I ground the jaws of an adjustable (crescent style) wrench such that it doesn't mar the tang now.  It's a gun-only wrench now. 

[Ky-Flinter]

When setting up to drill the White Lighting hole carefully locate and punch dead center of the flat, level the barrel at that end so you have the bit entering squarely. Do drill all the way on that side of the barrel but when you tap for the threads stop before you go all the way through, this allows the liner to seat firmly but not protrude into the inside of the barrel. Hack saw off the waste then carefully file the liner face flat.
dave

I respectfully disagree with the above "short-tapping" recommendation.  That's fine for straight sided liners, but isn't necessary or advisable with the Chambers' White Lightin' liner.

To install a White Lightin' liner, the hole should be tapped all the way thru to the bore.  Chambers liners are made with a small flange that is designed to seat against a slight countersink in the outside of the barrel.  Once the liner is installed and seated in the countersink, but before you trim off the outside lug, check to see if the liner protrudes into the bore, if it does, take it out and trim the inside end of the liner until it no longer sticks into the bore.

If the flange on the Chambers liner is not seated into the countersink in the barrel, you may file off too much on the outside of the liner and file into the internal dome, resulting in an over-sized touch-hole.  

-Ron

[Bob Roller]

A pipe wrench works goods to remove a breech plug. Put a cloth around it to protect it.

I ground the jaws of an adjustable (crescent style) wrench such that it doesn't mar the tang now.  It's a gun-only wrench now. 

Another rare metric crescent wrench lost forever

Bob Roller

[moleeyes36]

ejcrist,

If the plug doesn't come out easily, you might want to read through this thread before you apply brute force and possibly damage something.  http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=34631.0  Jerry's method of heating the breech end cherry red and letting it cool slowly really works well without fuss, muss, or possible damage to the tang or breech. 

Mole Eyes

[Nordnecker]

I respectfully disagree with the above "short-tapping" recommendation.  That works for straight sided liners, but isn't necessary or advisable with the Chambers' White Lightin' liner.

To install a White Lightin' liner, the hole should be tapped all the way thru to the bore.  Chambers liners are made with a small flange that is designed to seat against a slight countersink in the outside of the barrel.  Once the liner is installed and seated in the countersink, if the liner protrudes into the bore, take it out and trim the inside end of the liner until it no longer sticks into the bore.

If the flange on the Chambers liner is not seated into the countersink in the barrel, you may file off too much on the outside of the liner and file into the internal dome, resulting in an over-sized touch-hole.  

-Ron

AHA! The light bulb came on. So you can trim the INSIDE length off before you file the outside/ screw slot off. Either way, the breech plug will have to be removed. But at least you won't have to remove the extra from INSIDE the bore….DUH. I had to do that on my first WL install.

[David R. Pennington]

The most important overlooked necessary tool to removing a breechplug is a HEAVY stout vice. I use an old blacksmith's post vice with jaw liners made from a section of copper pipe annealed, split and shaped over the jaws. I use another piece of copper to pad the wrench jaws and apply the wrench from the underside of the plug. I use a rare old combination metric and standard adjustable wrench of ample size.
I would add that you plan carefully before drilling marking the location of the face of the plug on outside of barrel and inlet lock and barrel so that top of pan is centered on barrel flat and located so hole will be in right relation to breech plug face.

[Ky-Flinter]

Thanks Nordnecker.  I wasn't very clear on that step.  I've edited my post above to make that step more clear.

David, that's a great point.  No need to install the vent liner until after the barrel and lock are inlet.

-Ron

[ejcrist]

Thanks for all the excellent info fella's. Appreciate it much.

One last question. I was watching the Jim Turpin video "Building Muzzleloaders" last night and he located his vent liner by the standard method of installing the lock and locating the liner location and then drilling the hole. He drilled the hole with the breech plug installed and the hole was located quite a ways back into the plug - none of it was forward of the plug. Then he removed the plug and drilled a hole dead center of the plug face and exiting in the first hole he drilled in the barrel. I've never read in any of the building books about doing it this way but I suppose it'd work ok. It must if Jim's doing it. I thought he said in the beginning of the video that he purposely located the lock in the plank so the vent would be approximately 1/2" behind the face of the plug, so apparently that's how he intended to do it from the beginning. Has anyone done it this way and is there any particular benefit to it? Apparently it's only an issue if you're starting with a plank and not a pre-inlet stock from a kit. With the kit you're vent liner location in relation to the plug is already determined so you don't have a choice of where it'll be relative to the plug.

[WadePatton]

One puts the touchhole where it needs to be in order to have the lock in the right place.  If this intersects the breechplug, then you cut/drill/notch the plug as necessary or re-examine your touchhole location.

Allow for liner insert diameter if using such.

Missing the plug just barely is my goal.  I don't want an intersection of threaded holes.

[Long John]

Good catch Acer.  Your are right! Again!  If that drill does start hitting the breech plug it will leave the hole out-of-round.  I forgot about that.

EJ, the kind of breech you describe from the Turpin video is essentially a patent breech like Nock used to make.  The hole drilled down into the breech plug that intersects with the vent hole makes an "ante-chamber" that fills with powder and is supposed to produce a more energetic discharge.  If you plan to remove the barrel for cleaning, as is usual for a double barreled shotgun, then it is easy to get that ante-chamber clean and free of fouling.  You immerse the whole breech end of the barrel in a bucket of water and flush it with a patch on a cleaning rod pulled up and down the bore. But, if you plan to keep the gun assembled while cleaning then it is tough to get that ante-chamber breech clean and free of fouling.  That's why I generally design the gun so that the entire vent bushing, threads and all, are in front of the breech face.  It makes cleaning of the assembled gun much easier.

I use an adjustable wrench with brass covers on the jaws to pull the breech plug.  I also use brass pads for the vise jaws.  Sometimes its necessary to slip a piece of pipe over the wrench handle.  I don't think a breech plug should be so horrendously tight.  The end of the plug has to seal the breech end of the barrel, but if it is properly prepared it does not require enormous torque to achieve a good seal.  There is a thread here on getting a stubborn plug out that you might want to check-out.

Good luck.

J. Cholin

[ejcrist]

Thanks for the info Long John and Wade. Long John - That's what he called it, the ante-chamber. I remember watching the video before I assembled my first kit which was a TVM, and the plug and vent liner were already installed so I didn't pay much attention to that part. My long-term plan was to start with the easiest kit and progress to doing more myself until I eventually get to where I can start with a plank and parts of my choosing. So now with the Chambers kit I'll have to do the vent liner and I paid a lot more attention to the video and realized I never read anything about an ante-chamber before. That's good info to know. I don't intend to take apart any longrifles I put together other than the lock for cleaning so that design would probably work for me, but I like Long John's idea better and I'd prefer to keep the vent in front of the plug. I envision in front of the plug to be a lot easier to keep clean.

Thanks again for all the detailed info.

Gene

[ejcrist]

For breech plug removal I use a hefty old timey smooth faced adjustable wrench, you could get by with a larger modern adjustable, smooth faced. You might have to use a length of pipe to lengthen the handle and provide more leverage (pipe slides over the handle, maybe two foot long). Be SURE not to mar the upper part, top, of the Tang, clamp the wrench jaws below that area. It unscrews clockwise. The breech plug on Chambers (Sold by his daughter who's company is Buckeye barrels) are exactly 1/2 inch into the barrel. I too remove the plug and check for fit and and then polish the face. Polishing the face makes for easier cleaning as the residue comes off without much effort.

When setting up to drill the White Lighting hole carefully locate and punch dead center of the flat, level the barrel at that end so you have the bit entering squarely. Do drill all the way on that side of the barrel but when you tap for the threads stop before you go all the way through, this allows the liner to seat firmly but not protrude into the inside of the barrel. Hack saw off the waste then carefully file the liner face flat.

Good luck, go easy on that tang top, you may need to gently tap the wrench handle to get the plug moving.

dave

Dave - You said above that the Jim Chambers breech plug unscrews "clockwise"? Just want to make sure. I watched a video on You Tube (TOW flintlock kit update 3) and the plug on that one unscrewed counter-clockwise. 

[Bob Roller]

Bill Large would sometimes use a left hand thread on a breech plug.I suppose it was a study in dark humor but not appreciated by the customer who got it with no advance notice.I doubt if any barrels sold by Barbie or Jim have a left handed thread.

Bob Roller

[Ky-Flinter]

Dave - You said above that the Jim Chambers breech plug unscrews "clockwise"? Just want to make sure. I watched a video on You Tube (TOW flintlock kit update 3) and the plug on that one unscrewed counter-clockwise.  

Good catch EJ.  All the current barrel makers that I can think of use normal right-hand threads in the breech.  These will unscrew counter-clockwise, when facing the breech end of the barrel.

I have edited PPatch's original post, just in case future readers don't read down this far.

-Ron