.45 PRB versus elk

[Kermit]

None of my muzzleloaders have a caliber number stamped on the barrel where you can see it. Not one. 

[Hungry Horse]

 Dan, for your information the old boy I referred to, died of a heart attack, on his sixteenth elk hunt. he died after the lung shot, but before he finished his sandwich ( it didn't mention wether he fell over before the elk or not). His elk hunting prowess was mentioned in his obit.

                 Hungry Horse

[galamb]

I would use a 45 on Elk, but perhaps not a PRB - a Lee R.E.A.L. or a conical somewhere in the 245 grain area shot at no more than 50 yards would give me enough confidence.

I hunt Eastern Ontario Whitetails with a 40 cal (PRB) and will hunt them this year with a 38 cal (PRB), so I am definitely a close range finesse hunter who doesn't believe that you need a "magnum" to take larger game.

But you do have to "get close" and pass on all but a perfect broadside shot where you are 110% certain you are going to put the round through both lungs - no "kinda quartering shots", no partially obstructed game.

So if you can go into the woods with that kind of discipline and won't be disappointed if you see a few animals that you would be tempted to shoot at IF you had more firepower, then it really is doable.

But if you "have to get one" I would say minimally a 54 shooting PRB or a 50 shooting at least a ball-ete/PA Conical. 

[hanshi]

None of my muzzleloaders have a caliber number stamped on the barrel where you can see it. Not one. 

Mine neither.  My .54 IS stamped .54 but it is a factory rifle.

[mikderf]

For the record a .45 prb is not even legal for deer in Colorado in any season.

[Scota4570]

Colorado
Muzzleloader Regulations
Legal Description:

    “Muzzle-loading rifles and smoothbore muskets, provided the minimum caliber shall be forty (.40) for all big game except elk and moose. The minimum caliber for elk and moose shall be fifty (.50). All muzzle-loading rifles and smoothbore muskets from forty (.40) caliber through fifty (.50) caliber must use a bullet of at least 170 grains in weight. All muzzle-loading rifles and smoothbore muskets greater than fifty (.50) caliber must use bullets of at least 210 grains in weight.”

    a. During the muzzle-loading firearms seasons for deer, elk, pronghorn, bear, and moose only lawful muzzle-loaders and smoothbore muskets may be used by muzzle-loading license holders.
    b. During the muzzle-loading firearm seasons for deer, elk, pronghorn, bear, and moose the following additional restrictions apply:
    1.Propellent/Powders: The use of pelletized powder systems and smokeless powder are prohibited.
    2. Projectiles: Sabots are prohibited. For the purposes of this regulation cloth patches are not sabots.
    3. Loading: Firearms must load from the muzzle. Firearms, which can be loaded from the breech, are prohibited.
    4. Sights: Any muzzle-loading rifle or smoothbore musket with any sighting device other than open or “iron” sights is prohibited.
    5. Electronic or battery-powered devices cannot be incorporated into or attached to the muzzle-loading firearm.

General Muzzleloader Seasons
(Deer) September 14th-22nd and October 12th-20th
(Elk) September 14th-22nd and October 12th-20th

This information is subject to change, for more information visit: http://wildlife.state.co.us/

[Daryl]

Scota 4570 - Would you be so kind as to explain #5 please. I know not of what they speak.

[JDK]

Daryl,

They might just be referring to laser, holo or red dot type sights, but they may also be including electronic firing devices like were offered by at least one of the makers of those "other types" of muzzleloaders.

Yep I couldn't believe it when I saw it the first time either.....battery operated ignition system on a muzzleloader.  A real head shaker.

Enjoy, J.D.

[LH]

tryin to turn a muzzleloader into a raygun.  tsk tsk tsk.   

[mikderf]

Is there anyway to make a .45 round ball weigh 170 grain?

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I wonder what one cast of 24 K Gold would weigh?

[Robby]

Gold is lighter than lead, plutonium or osmium might make it 180gr. but I wouldn't want to be the castor.
Robby

[Daryl]

Is there anyway to make a .45 round ball weigh 170 grain?

Someone some time ago - thought it was here, maybe not, noted his wife had to double-ball her .40 cal. to meet the ball weight minimum. D-balling  was allowed as the projectile weight was increased to 184gr. or there about.  Her (or his) groups at 50 yards were in the 2-3" range for multiple 'shots' of multiple balls, each ball from a given load, almost cutting each other.
I think he'd worked up to about 70gr. of 2F for the load. I do not know how it worked. One would have to be VERY careful that both balls were touching and that the bottom ball was on the powder.

HEY- there's a use for those otherwise useless .010" or .012'" patches some people 'are want to use' - use that thin patch on the first ball, seat it, then when a real patch and ball combination is seated down, the looseness of the here-to-for useless patch, will allow the otherwise compressing air to bypass that ball and powder - out the vent or nipple and thus allow the second ball to be seated against the other without the danger of moving back up the bore.  The expanding powder gasses of the load will not get past the real patched ball, thus they just might shoot OK. With a try.

I certainly would NOT go after an elk with a .45 that was not a bullet shooter.

A 48" twist is not designed for shooting bullets at the larger, big game.  Probably fine for deer - but not trustworthy to give straight line penetration  on elk or moose, imho.

[Mike R]

Interesting discussion...as I have only killed one elk in my life I have little to add except that my limited experience would support a "no" to a .45 rd ball for elk.  Some friends think a .45 is inadequate for whitetail deer [it is not]. Elk are a lot bigger and tougher than whitetails.  I once had a .58 Hawken copy I made with the idea of using it for elk and the like, but I got talked out of it at a Colorado rondy years back and I expect it has taken a few elk by now...a real whomper with a big ball and lots of powder!!!

[sloe bear]

 54 or more don't rely on just getting close enough for a .45 if you get that close a .54 will do a much better job and you might save a lot of work finding the animal then hauling it from where it finally died.

[Hungry Horse]

 The number "5" rule mentioned was designed to eliminate  a specific inline that used an electronic ignition instead of percussion caps, or centerfire primers. But also short circuited the electronic sighting systems in the process.

            Hungry Horse

[longcruise]

The number "5" rule mentioned was designed to eliminate  a specific inline that used an electronic ignition instead of percussion caps, or centerfire primers. But also short circuited the electronic sighting systems in the process.

            Hungry Horse

It was fully intended to eliminate other electronics on the gun as well.  Same applys to archery gear although they recently made an exception for illuminated nocks and cameras like Go Pro.

It becomes muddier when you read the section on loaded firearms in a motor vehicle

(It is illegal to) "Have a loaded (in the chamber) rifle or shotgun in or on any motor vehicle. Muzzleloading rifles are considered unloaded if the percussion cap or shotshell primer is removed, or if the powder is removed from flashpan. It is illegal for anyone to have a loaded electronic-ignition muzzleloader in or on a motor vehicle unless the chamber is unloaded or the battery is disconnected and removed from its compartment."

But, the above does not address ML only season.  It's my guess that number 5 eliminates the electronic ignition even if it is not specifically mentioned.

In Alaska, the minimum ML caliber for big game hunting is .45. Period.  Apparently they leave it to the common sense of the hunter.  Wonder if anybody ever went after the big bears or a moose with a .45 prb!

[Daryl]

 Wonder if anybody ever went after the big bears or a moose with a .45 prb!

Perhaps only once, if they did.

[smylee grouch]

I always thought gold was was alot denser than lead.

[moleeyes36]

"(It is illegal to) "Have a loaded (in the chamber) rifle or shotgun in or on any motor vehicle. Muzzleloading rifles are considered unloaded if the percussion cap or shotshell primer is removed, or if the powder is removed from flashpan." 

I know it's getting a little off the original topic of .45 PRB for elk, but I had to comment on this common definition of an unloaded flintlock.  I'm glad Mike Lee mentioned what it says in the CO game laws because I've always had a problem with this official, legal, government approved and dangerous definition of an unloaded flintlock.  It says the same in the Florida game regulations and I suspect it's the same in more states than FL and CO. 

A flintlock that has powder and ball in it can fire with no powder in the pan surprisingly easy.  Assuming that the lock is a good sparking lock, if the frizzen is closed and the hammer is cocked a shower of sparks bouncing around in an empty pan will happen if the hammer falls.  With a decent vent like a White Lightning, the powder is very close to the sparks bouncing around in the pan.  With a good shower of sparks, a spark will sometimes enter the vent igniting the powder.  I've demonstrated this to new shooters.

Inexperienced or careless flintlock hunters will sometimes pull the cock back to get it out of the way, open the frizzen, and just blow out the powder in the pan.  They then close the frizzen, while leaving the gun cocked, and put the gun in their vehicle.  As dumb as this action is, it often happens and satisfies the above letter of the law.

I've been teaching new flintlock shooters that they need to take the extra precaution of leaving the frizzen open and fully lowering the cock after brushing all the powder from the pan.  Then they can case the gun and put it in their vehicle avoiding the chance of a tragic accident.  Okay, now I'll climb down off my stump .

Mole Eyes

[bob in the woods]

Where I live ,  in order to be " unloaded " we need to empty the pan, and plug the vent.  I use a feather. 

[Daryl]

Where I live ,  in order to be " unloaded " we need to empty the pan, and plug the vent.  I use a feather. 

Here, the plugged vent is not required, Bob, but plugging the vent would prevent powder granuals entering the pan and then the gun being declared loaded. It's a worthwhile and logical accidental firing or "Charge" prevention measure, for sure.

[longcruise]

I'm not a flint shooter but always wondered about the danger described.  How about those leather dealies that go over the frizzen?  Would that be a solution?

[bob in the woods]

The solution to not having an accidental discharge is very simple. Eliminate any potential source /cause of sparks that could enter the touch hole. If the pan is empty, and the cock is lowered, with the frizzen forward, you're pretty much there. In this configuration, a leather cover on the frizzen is not doing anything, really.  If you plug the touch hole, on top of all this, you have about as safe a situation as you can hope for with a load in the barrel.  I must say; in my 28 years of flintlock use, I have never had an accidental discharge, or any other problem. I personally think that the flintlock system is safer than percussion.
More than once I've witnessed percussion shooters have hammer blow back trouble, hang fires, nipple blow outs, and hang fires .  Cap residue on the nipple [ after rooming the cap] was the supposed cause of one accidental discharge during a match.
The gun fired when the hammer was let down on the nipple after the cap had been removed.

[moleeyes36]

I agree that an object in the vent is good sense and do so myself; as Bob does, I also use a feather.  With a feather in the vent, the cock lowered and the frizzen forward you've pretty much made a gun with a charge in it as safe as you can.  Like you, Bob, I also don't see a need for a leather shoe over the frizzen if you've done all that. 

You all can decide if you want to take these extra steps beyond what the law requires you to do.  As for me, I figure the Viet Cong didn't manage to shoot me so why take a chance in doing to myself.

Mole  Eyes