Author Topic: OPEN: " Barrel Signatures and Patchboxes" in Library. PLEASE send us pictures  (Read 13480 times)

Offline Hurricane ( of Virginia)

  • Library_mod
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2081
Have had little Library activity recently so I thought I would try to stimulate interest by starting a new section in the Library/ Museum that would collect " Barrel signature" or "patchbox pictures thought to be specific or unique" for a maker. PLease either post a songle good picture of each in this thread or email them and we will develop a section in the Library section. This could become a readily available source to authenic a barrel ( hopefully a complete rifle or pistol for the ALR Members. A good picture with a cell phone..EASY...would be fine.
Pictures of the whole guns would also be welcome as always

Huricane  ( fgarner@verizon.net)    New website:  Americankentuckyrifleart.com   ( almost complete with many photos and pearls for new members )

Nord  (nordate@mindsring.net)
« Last Edit: May 07, 2015, 01:24:24 AM by Hurricane ( of Virginia) »

Offline GrampaJack

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 345
Re: Barrel Signatures
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2015, 02:34:28 AM »
Would it be of value to include cap box pictures too?  Not the commercial variety but those that might be unique to a particular maker? Just a thought. Jack
« Last Edit: April 02, 2015, 02:35:13 AM by GrampaJack »

Offline Shreckmeister

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3808
  • GGGG Grandpa Schrecengost Gunsmith/Miller
Re: Barrel Signatures
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2015, 03:16:31 AM »
This is a great idea for a resource that will be searchable. It would also be great if Dr Whisker would publish a digital version of his patchboxes and barrel markings which could be searched.
Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.

Offline albert

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 341
Re: Barrel Signatures
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2015, 04:08:45 AM »
I'll try to get some pictures this weekend, I have a C*Beck, J Teaff,and couple others , can I e-mail to either of the two e-mail add. above ?
j albert miles

Offline Hurricane ( of Virginia)

  • Library_mod
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2081
Re: Barrel Signatures
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2015, 05:36:19 AM »
Albert and all others. This is a start..love to have any and all. Send them to either of us.
Hurricane

Offline MGillman

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 215
Re: Barrel Signatures
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2015, 10:01:29 PM »
I sent some signatures yesterday Hurricane

Offline Hurricane ( of Virginia)

  • Library_mod
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2081
Re: Barrel Signatures
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2015, 10:17:08 PM »
Got your pictures. Thank you. We need some time to set up software infra structure.

Offline GrampaJack

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 345
Re: Barrel Signatures
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2015, 02:05:01 AM »
Can you pick up signatures and patch boxes from guns that are already in the library or should we resend them to you? This is a great idea. Thanks, Jack
« Last Edit: April 03, 2015, 02:05:35 AM by GrampaJack »

Offline Hurricane ( of Virginia)

  • Library_mod
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2081
Re: Barrel Signatures
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2015, 05:30:30 AM »
Resending is easier but we will do both. Thanks for the support.
Hurricane

Offline MGillman

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 215
Re: Barrel Signatures
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2015, 07:53:54 PM »
How is this project going?

Offline Hurricane ( of Virginia)

  • Library_mod
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2081
Re: Barrel Signatures
« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2015, 08:03:06 PM »
Not well...but we won't give up. Very few contributions so far.
The Committee

Offline MGillman

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 215
Re: Barrel Signatures
« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2015, 09:07:47 PM »
Hurricane I will send you two patchboxes that goes with the signatures I have already sent

Offline smokinbuck

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3005
Re: Barrel Signatures
« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2015, 02:00:09 AM »
Hurricane,
Just sent pics of a barrel signature and the stamp that made it. Not an important builder but I thought having the barrel stamp was a little unusual.
Mark
Mark

Offline Hurricane ( of Virginia)

  • Library_mod
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2081
Thanks to those that sent us pictures of signatures,,,we are open for business.

All makers alphabetized by last name.

Some "B"s and "S"s to start. Tune in regularly , we hope to have hundreds with patchboxes but it will take time and more enthusiastic support from the members.

Initialled only barrels will be presented for you to "Guess" and support your opinion please!Fun!!! and debate

Thank you
The Committee
« Last Edit: May 07, 2015, 01:24:55 AM by Hurricane ( of Virginia) »

Offline MGillman

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 215
Hurricane- were you able to link the two patchboxes I sent along with the 4 signatures of the maker I sent? The are the same maker.

Offline Hurricane ( of Virginia)

  • Library_mod
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2081
Have added many signatures and patchboxes today: Derr (X4), Schreckengost, Truby, Hawk, Armstrong, Siebert, Row, Mathessie, Allen, etc. Again thanks to those who support our efforts on ALR to maintain this as the finest Kentucky Rifle informational source!

The Museum and Library Committee
« Last Edit: May 17, 2015, 11:06:32 PM by Hurricane ( of Virginia) »

Offline HIB

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 348
Fred and Gentlemen,  I do not wish to put a damper on this project because I think it has great value to the new collector. Having said that I doubt, my self included, many collectors welcome the reference to barrel signatures. There are just too many individuals in today's contemporary market who would love to duplicate an original signature on their modern version of an old master. I have seen at least three in the last 10 years. It is a dangerous  territory to navigate.

Patch box's do not represent the same problem but signatures have always been a forbidden territory from the collector's stand point. There are guns still out in the market with forged signatures. I saw one recently and was appalled. But I'm an old @$#% and can tell the difference. New buyers can not.

Suggest a seminar on detection of original from fraud. The Powder Horn Guild has produced several interesting articles on the subject and Art DeCamp is an expert on the subject.

Proceed with the patch box concept but forget the signature issue if you want collectors to participate.

Actually like your idea but feel it is full of holes at the moment.  What ever you accomplish will exceed Wiskar's[sic] attempt due to digital imaging   HIB


Offline Herb

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1709
Here is a Jacob Wigle rifle, Westmoreland County, PA.  Original in the Dinosaur museum in Vernal, Utah.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2020, 07:24:09 PM by Herb »
Herb

Offline Herb

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1709
Here is his patch box.  Toe plate release.  I have the butt plate removed here.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2020, 07:24:27 PM by Herb »
Herb

Offline Hurricane ( of Virginia)

  • Library_mod
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2081
Before I wrote this response to “HIB’s” comments above, I spoke with him personally to try to be sure that my response did not create an unpleasant, inflamed and/or inappropriate debate here between us and/or others. The core issue, as I understand it, is the unscrupulous “forger” of barrel signatures and by unknowingly perpetuating “already faked” signatures by presenting digital photographed barrel signatures that could mislead future stewards….to a lesser extent the same can be said of patchboxes.

CERTAINLY BOTH VALID POINTS TO BE RESPECTED. HOWEVER, our goal has always been educational and promotional of the stewardship of these Artifacts of American History and Art…and it will remain so.

I personally am reluctant to acquiesce to the “faker/forger” reality of the few, placing at risk the education, knowledge, sharing and appreciation of those in the vast majority that have integrity. In fact , I reflect on the recent discussions of the issues of “honest reproduction” ( hopefully a contemporary maker signed bench copy) and well intended restoration of respected masterpieces and their effects on the originals value.
Reminded that today, the internet auctions and our own ALR Museum library contains hundreds of digital photos of signatures ( all presented with the permission of the owners), I have personally decided to continue to offer this effort to those who wish to add, teach or learn in this way. Please continue to send us photos to post for ALL to view and learn.

Two lessons to be learned by all:

Before buying, get “expert “ opinions before investing!!!

Test the barrel signature with your finger. If it is “sharp”, it is not likely old or original. The same be true of any metal engraving, perhaps an incised wood carving too.

Hurricane (Fred)
« Last Edit: May 20, 2015, 12:57:17 AM by Hurricane ( of Virginia) »

Offline Hurricane ( of Virginia)

  • Library_mod
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2081
Herb: Thank you! I will add them to the Museum.
Hurricane
« Last Edit: May 20, 2015, 01:00:18 AM by Hurricane ( of Virginia) »

George Roberts

  • Guest
Hello Hurricane,
These are both stamps rather than signatures.  Hope that's okay.






George Roberts

Offline Hurricane ( of Virginia)

  • Library_mod
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2081
Thank you George
Hurricane

Offline T*O*F

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5123
How about you change the title of the Hawken listing (both of them).
It's S. Hawken.........not S. Hawkins

Dave Kanger

If religion is opium for the masses, the internet is a crack, pixel-huffing orgy that deafens the brain, numbs the senses and scrambles our peer list to include every anonymous loser, twisted deviant, and freak as well as people we normally wouldn't give the time of day.
-S.M. Tomlinson

Offline Hurricane ( of Virginia)

  • Library_mod
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2081
Hawken correction made. Thank you
Hurricane