Cleaning Original Longrifle?

[Mark Elliott]

I would not use abrasives on any antique.   I use Ballistol, alone, to remove a bit of very dark patina from an antique; and I apply it with cotton swabs so as to carefully control my work.   However,  I have found that more often than not, I need to protect the gun from being shinned up due to my handling.   Latex, nitrile, or cotton gloves are a good idea for handling valuable guns.  You don't want to remove too much of that patina.   I learned that the hard way. 

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Thanks for the tip on Kramer's.....it looks like good stuff.  My question is....I have been using Howard's Feed N Wax....is this a similar product...does it largely do the same thing...or is it something different altogether?

Howards seems to be for use after cleaning.... I would normally use Renaissance wax for that.
I will send you a sample from my bottle of Kramers so you can test it somewhere safe....

[Molly]

Cannot believe a wire brush has yet to be suggested.  So, get a wire brush and 60 grit iron oxide.  That'll fix it.

[E.vonAschwege]

Cannot believe a wire brush has yet to be suggested.  So, get a wire brush and 60 grit iron oxide.  That'll fix it.

I can't tell from your post whether you're being serious or sarcastic.  In the interest of education for everyone, here are my thoughts on wirebrushes:  A wirebrush and sandpaper is the number one surefire way to utterly destroy an antique firearm.  Not only does it remove patina, but it strips just about every bit of character from the original brass, iron, and especially wood.  Wirebrushed antiques can be spotted 50 feet away, and have about zero appeal to most collectors.  Using a wirebrush on the gun in question here would decrease it's not insignificant value by about half (or more?).  I've got an otherwise nice war of 1812 era sea service pistol on my bench that someone wirebrushed and frankly destroyed.  Careful cleaning using some of the methods described below would have maintained its color and value.  Nothing much to be done with it now except remove the polyurethane on it.  Just my opinion,
-Eric

[Molly]

Sarcastic! 

[JCKelly]

In some circles, Cleaning is regarded as a capital offense

Your rifle has a $#*! of a lot more appeal to a collector if you just leave it alone.

[Molly]

"Many of the brass parts like the ramrod thimbles and the nose cap are so black you can't even tell they are brass."

Collectors already know what the components are made of and they do not need to be seen "as brass".  With the photos provided it looks pretty good to me and accordingly I would not mess with it.  Nothing looks worse than a nice bright brass part on well aged wood. 

[moleeyes36]

Thanks for the tip on Kramer's.....it looks like good stuff.  My question is....I have been using Howard's Feed N Wax....is this a similar product...does it largely do the same thing...or is it something different altogether?

Howards seems to be for use after cleaning.... I would normally use Renaissance wax for that.
I will send you a sample from my bottle of Kramers so you can test it somewhere safe....

I don't know about antique guns (the only thing antique in my house is me) but Kramer's works like a champ on contemporary made guns with oil finishes.  It removes the crud transferred from your hands to the stock after a day's shooting without hurting the oil finish.  For those of you in dry climates, it helps to keep the wood from drying out as well.  It was created for and is used by museums on antique furniture, clock cases, etc.  I've been using it for years.

Mole Eyes

[vtbuck223]

I just wanted to say thanks again to everyone who responded to my request and willingly shared their knowledge and techniques.  Mineral oil …or mineral oil based products as is the case with Ballistol…was a common thread.  Mineral oil now has a permanent place in my tool kit.
I was able to do some experimentation. As mentioned above….the mineral oil was a  great revelation….whether used alone or mixed with Brasso.  Mixing the two is genius…and works incredibly well as long as one is very careful…..  making sure that they are thoroughly mixed, using  very small amounts, being very precise in application, and going slow. Though I have not actually used it on my longrifle…..there are a few spots  where some of the “staining”  on the metal….might call for using a mineral oil & Brasso mix….and I might consider very targeted use of that in the future.  As  I was mostly focused on the techniques for metal….and have not yet tried any of the wood related suggestions….though Kramer’s is at the top of my list to check out.
As for what I have actually done on the rifle:  I  simply cleaned the metal parts using mostly cloth rags, water,   mineral oil, and 0000 steel wool.  I am very pleased with the results and am at a place where I am ready to stop for now. Thanks again.

[vtbuck223]

Here are the full view before and after pics that I promised...

[JTR]

Yikes, so how did it turn from light brown to red?  

John

[mr. no gold]

Ox Blood shoe polish? I have a cleaned gun I would have traded for this had I seen it in time. Wood is scrubbed down with a 3-M brillo pad to a bright yellow, all ferrous metals have been chrome plated and the brass has been gold washed. Man, does it ever look good! I know, the carving suffered some in the scrub down and most of the little squiggle lines and worm tracks, or such in the brass are pretty indistinct now, but as I say, it's a fine looking gun.
Reekie

[art riser]

SAD!!!

[blackbruin]

There went the patina...

[louieparker]

 A rifle like you HAD is hard to find.... Now just another redone, shiny rifle..   

[WadePatton]

We tried to warn ya.  But yep, it is your gun.

oh well.   

[vtbuck223]

Yikes, so how did it turn from light brown to red? 

John

Interesting comment concerning the color of the wood.  The before photo....is when I first got this rifle years ago.  It was extremely...extremely dry and brittle! Since that time....I have been regularly using Howards Feed N Wax on it....applying very gently....I might add. I have never done anything else to the wood....never scrubbed it....never applied anything else to it.  I settled on Howards Feed N Wax....based on the suggestion of many reputable people on this site. I assumed the change in color was just the wood being revitalized? If anyone sees this and does  not like the change in the wood....I would recommend not using Howard's.  I suppose I could stop using on this rifle and in 50 years it would dry out and  look like it did before.....

[E.vonAschwege]

Folks, Let's please keep this civil.  I have no qualms about locking the topic should the need arise, however I also think that discourse on the subject can still be educational for the future.

Vtbuck, it is your rifle, but if I'm not mistaken, most collectors view themselves as temporary caretakers fortunate enough to have possession of these antiques for a short time.  True attic condition rifles (as yours used to be) are darn near impossible to find - the trend in the mid 20th century was to polish everything until it glowed - as a result there are a great number of fine rifles that have no original patina whose finishes were "refreshed" by removing the old dark varnish and applying new oil and wax.  Because there are so few rifles that haven't been touched, collectors find them very valuable for their history, as study pieces for what patina should look like after 200 years, and for their rarity. This is the reason many here are dismayed to see the transformation. 

Unfortunately, the steel wool, brasso, and mineral oil combination is quite abrasive, and it did a lot more than just knock the gunk off of the brass and silver.  The stock had the "dry" appearance, mostly because much of its finish was worn off or removed, but as many suggested in another thread, it's best to leave the wood entirely alone (except to stabilize the cracks and prevent further deterioration).

 There's no "revitalizing", "refreshing", or "moisturizing" wood - it's something they put on furniture polish labels to get folks to think they're breathing new life into their furniture. The wood is just fine, it's just got a scratched or missing finish.  The oils fill scratches and crazes in original finishes and make them look newer, with orange or lemon oil simply to make it smell better.  A quick look at Howard's Feed and Wax shows that it has beeswax, carnauba wax, orange oil, and I'd bet some mineral oil and other petroleum distillates as well.  On a stock with little original finish, the oils and waxes soak into and darken it.  None of that does anything to strengthen the wood.  In time it may lighten up again, but I'm afraid it has lost a substantial amount of interest and value to most collectors.

[JTR]

Eric, Why would you consider locking this thread?
No one has said anything different or less civil than you just wrote, but somehow, in your mind, what others have written is uncivil? Perhaps you could explain in what way?

With all due respect,
John

[WadePatton]

John, methinks because the subject is touchy.

Eric, thanks for a great write up on the angst herein stirred. It should be illuminating for many. 

[E.vonAschwege]

Eric, Why would you consider locking this thread?
No one has said anything different or less civil than you just wrote, but somehow, in your mind, what others have written is uncivil? Perhaps you could explain in what way?

With all due respect,
John

Hey John, As Wade said, it's a touchy subject.  I don't feel anyone had made any uncivil comments.  I mentioned locking it because I don't want it to deteriorate into something less so.  No one's comments were deleted or altered.  

[louieparker]

Eric, If you could have read our actual thoughts, locking the topic would have no doubt been very justified...LP

[vtbuck223]

Though....I didn't intend my rifle to be in the middle....I find this to be a very fascinating conversation....as much by what goes unsaid...and the obvious disagreement even amongst the "experts". One only has to do a search of the site....not to mention this thread to see that there is disagreement over something as seemingly simple as applying something to the wood.  I will say that after learning about Howard's Feed N Wax and  starting to use it on my antique guns....that I have to disagree with the idea that it does not strengthen the wood. Like this longrife I have other very old (1740's-1760's) pieces, and the wood was so brittle that I was afraid to handle them. The Howard's definitely changed that....I have seen it with my own two eyes.

As far as the comments....I am not offended and I don't believe they are inappropriate...even when they are not helpful.

I would like to respond to Mr. No Gold before this thread gets closed....
Firstly....I appreciate your passion....but the sky isn't falling....and while not inappropriate...your comments are a bit over the top.

Ox Blood shoe polish? I have a cleaned gun I would have traded for this had I seen it in time. Wood is scrubbed down with a 3-M brillo pad to a bright yellow, all ferrous metals have been chrome plated and the brass has been gold washed. Man, does it ever look good! I know, the carving suffered some in the scrub down and most of the little squiggle lines and worm tracks, or such in the brass are pretty indistinct now, but as I say, it's a fine looking gun.
Reekie

No brillo pads or shoe polish was used on this rifle....just Howards Feed N Wax
NO chrome plating or gold wash on this longrifle....
Here are some closeups....




I didn't remove the patina....heck I didn't even remove all of the crud....
Be passionate....but don't have a coronary....life is too short!
I will say that the picture makes the rifle look darker than it is....probably lighting and background.
The rifle is on my wall.....and I like it....a lot!

[jdm]

 Over the twohundred years or so that an antique longrifle has been around it has switched hands numerous times. We have (in most cases ) no idea how many owners it has had. Unfortunately most all of them has felt the need to do there part to improve the appearance or bring it back. I'm guilty as area lot of other collectors. Hopefully we learn   from our mistakes. The one thing we all should remember is changing the finish is a one way trip! There is no going back.  You can always change the old finish   but no return trip.  However it is the present owners to do with as they wish.  JIM

[rich pierce]

I recall going to long rifle shows in the 70s where every old long rifle gleamed. It's a new world in collecting now. That is what is being conveyed. I think there is no factual data that proves old wood can be vitalized by rubbing some stuff into it. The stuff being rubbed in doesn't seem too strong to me. Heck I can shape it any way I want. The main point I take away from these discussions is that whenever one does something that cannot be undone then the antique is probably devalued. Another recurring lesson is that folks get a wide range of advice and choose the advice that appeals to them. Often because we may not know an expert collector with 40 years of experience from Adam based on their forum name and our newness to the collecting community, all advice seems to carry the same weight.