British locks with "Stalking safetys"

[sz]

Hello all.
I am building a Rigby style rifle with a stalking safety.  I have only handled a few originals with such safety's and I have never had the opportunity to take one of those locks apart.  From what I have seen there are safeties the lock the hammer and some that lock the tumblers.   Some may lock both.

What I am looking for is some good pictures of original locks which at disassembled, so I can get some ideas as to which system I would like to make.  Is there anyone out there that could send me some pics?

[Naphtali]

Pedersoli incorporates a stalking safety on their Mortimer flintlock. While safety functioning is not precisely for what you ask, and some question how durable it is in long-term use, obtaining isometric drawings and/or examining one may serve a satisfactory purpose.

Hope this helps.

[hammer]

The internal safety bolts  I have seen have a simple square ended tongue on the inside that engages a corresponding deep slot cut in the tumbler.    No spring or tensioner on the bolt.

[Curtis]

Not disassembled but inside/outside views:

http://www.flintriflesmith.com/antique_gun_locks.htm - scroll down
 http://www.therifleshoppe.com/catalog_pages/english_locks_sights/%28616%29.htm

[Majorjoel]

The simplest form of a lock safety is pictured on this German made (Zella) percussion lock. It merely blocks the hammer cock from making contact with the nipple.   

[smart dog]

Hi,
These photos should give you the idea for a typical bolted lock that acts on the tumbler.  It is a copy of a lock from a pair of Wogden dueling pistols from 1785.

dave

[Bob Roller]

The simplest form of a lock safety is pictured on this German made (Zella) percussion lock. It merely blocks the hammer cock from making contact with the nipple.   

Many years ago I made one of these German style locks with the rotating safety.
they aren't hard to make.

Bob Roller

[sz]

Thanks so much guys.

Smart Dog, that's exactly what I was looking for.  I did expect the internal bar would lock into the tumbler, but I was not sure.  Now that I can see one I can proceed to make parts and install them.  I think I will make mine to lock the tumbler and the hammer both at the same time.
If I make the "finger piece" (for lack of a better term") high enough to interfere with the hammer and then cut a slot into the hammer for it to fit into at half-cock I think I can come up with a safety that locks inside and outside.

Thanks again

[andy49]

Dave
Did you make that lock?
Andy

[Carl Young]

Great information, thanks for posting guys. I "thought" I had puzzled out the mechanism, but wasn't positive. This will help me on my planned English (Manton/Wogdon) style lock, especially Dave's photos (I would also be interested in more info on this lock).

Questions:  traditionally is the fitment of the "finger piece" simply a rectangular bar in a squared slot, relying on the hammer/cock to hold it in place?
                  What is the function of the rotatable "dove wing" located above the sear spring on Dave's lock ?
                  Is a spring and a cam used to retain the "finger piece" in the safe/fire position?

Mr. Roller I'd appreciate knowing your thoughts on how you would make one.

Thanks for sharing.
Carl

[smart dog]

Hi Andy and Carl,
I made the lock from castings by Blackley's.  The castings included the frizzen, plate, flintcock, top jaw, sear, bridle, tumbler, safety slide, and safety bolt.  I made all lock springs, screws, fly, stirrup, and safety spring.  I eventually made my own bridles as well.  The lock is one of a pair I built. 

The safety thumb slide has a horizontal bar that fits through a slot in the lock plate.  That bar is morticed and pinned within the sliding bolt that locks the tumbler. You can see the end of the bar in its mortice in several of the photos.  The end of the bolt has a little raised nub on it.  That nub rubs against the little raised nub you can see on the inside of the "wing-shaped" safety spring. When the safety is slid back, the nub on the spring pushes the nub on the bolt back holding it in the off position.  When slid forward, the nub on the bolt slides over the nub on the spring and the spring holds the slide in the forward "on" position.  The small pistol locks were hard to make because all of the screw holes, slots, and mortices were tiny and had to be very precise.

dave

[Carl Young]

Dave, thanks for walking me thru to the "Ah Ha!" moment, great explanation. A little knowledge is dangerous, which implies I'm one dangerous fellow. I'm curious by nature and want to know how it was done, and can I do it. You got me thru the "how", now just need find out if I have enough blood, sweat, tears, and patience to get to "can do".

Carl

[Bob Roller]

Hi Andy and Carl,
I made the lock from castings by Blackley's.  The castings included the frizzen, plate, flintcock, top jaw, sear, bridle, tumbler, safety slide, and safety bolt.  I made all lock springs, screws, fly, stirrup, and safety spring.  I eventually made my own bridles as well.  The lock is one of a pair I built. 

The safety thumb slide has a horizontal bar that fits through a slot in the lock plate.  That bar is morticed and pinned within the sliding bolt that locks the tumbler. You can see the end of the bar in its mortice in several of the photos.  The end of the bolt has a little raised nub on it.  That nub rubs against the little raised nub you can see on the inside of the "wing-shaped" safety spring. When the safety is slid back, the nub on the spring pushes the nub on the bolt back holding it in the off position.  When slid forward, the nub on the bolt slides over the nub on the spring and the spring holds the slide in the forward "on" position.  The small pistol locks were hard to make because all of the screw holes, slots, and mortices were tiny and had to be very precise.

dave

Anyone that can make a lock from those particular castings is way ahead of me.
I looked at some At Friendship several years ago and turned the job down.
I think they may have been for an overcoat pistol,very small,much smaller than
the current L&R small Manton.

Bob Roller

[smart dog]

Hi Bob,
They were hard to do because of the size and I eventually discarded the cast bridles because there was not enough metal left surrounding the screw locations to drill them for an adequate sized screw (in my case 5-48).  I made my own from scratch.  Also Bob, I reshaped the mainsprings since those photos were taken.  A long time ago you and I discussed these locks on this forum and you remarked about the open bend on the springs.  The springs worked very well but I also like the closed bend typical of better made English locks because the lower leaf of the spring is straight when the lock is at full cock rather than bending upward in a slight arc. I reshaped the springs to achieve the latter geometry.  As small as they are (plates are 4" long by 3/4" wide), those locks are fantastic performers.  However, I cannot imagine trying to make them to sell.  I'd have to charge >$500 for each one just to recoup minimum wage.

dave  

[smylee grouch]

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong but were some of those locks made to disengage the safety bar by caming it rearward when you went to full cock?

[smart dog]

Hi Smiley,
There may have been locks made like that and it certainly would be an advantage.  However, on these locks and on all of the other originals I've had the opportunity to examine, none had that feature. The mechanism would have to kick the safety bolt back before the cock moved back otherwise it would jam in the tumbler.

dave

[smylee grouch]

If I remember right the safety bolt had a concave shaped end so when the cock was moved to the rear into full cock position the tumbler rode against the concave tip slidin g it to the rear and disengaging it from the tumbler. I hope I explained that right.

[smylee grouch]

Just thought of it after I posted my last comment. The lock I might be thinking of might have been a Jacob Kuntz lock. Who himself was a great innovator and made guns with alot of English style features.

[Bob Roller]

Hi Bob,
They were hard to do because of the size and I eventually discarded the cast bridles because there was not enough metal left surrounding the screw locations to drill them for an adequate sized screw (in my case 5-48).  I made my own from scratch.  Also Bob, I reshaped the mainsprings since those photos were taken.  A long time ago you and I discussed these locks on this forum and you remarked about the open bend on the springs.  The springs worked very well but I also like the closed bend typical of better made English locks because the lower leaf of the spring is straight when the lock is at full cock rather than bending upward in a slight arc. I reshaped the springs to achieve the latter geometry.  As small as they are (plates are 4" long by 3/4" wide), those locks are fantastic performers.  However, I cannot imagine trying to make them to sell.  I'd have to charge >$500 for each one just to recoup minimum wage.

dave  

I think I got $250 for the labor on the tiny lock I mentioned.That was over 20 years ago and I won't do one now for any price or reason.I made all the internal mechanism and Lynton McKenzie told me the cast internal parts were a hopeless case and that I did well on the bench made parts.I made it for a friend,Tom Nixon and he didn't use it and I THINK he traded it to Wayne Jenkins but I'm not sure.

Bob Roller

[bob in the woods]

Fantastic work .  I commend both your skill and patience. 

[David R. Pennington]

What is the function of the piece covering the sear spring? Is it a pressure spring to hold the safety in place? How does it function?

[smart dog]

Hi DavidR,
Read my response to Andy and Carl above.

dave

[Bob Roller]

What is the function of the piece covering the sear spring? Is it a pressure spring to hold the safety in place? How does it function?

That little cover over the sear spring has a raised part inside of it,a cam that will compress the spring when it is moved out of the "safe" position and capture it when in the "safe" position.

Bob Roller