Long range (200 - 300yd) roundball shooting?

[Daryl]

I once witnessed a shot on a large bull moose at a measured 170yards. The gun was a TC .54, using 100gr. of Pyrodex and a .530" RB with .020 OxYoke patch- pre-lubed with bore butter or some other wintergreen smelling "lube".

The ball hit the moose in the ribs, went between 2, punched a 1/2" hole through the first lung, centred the heart, about 1/2" hole, punched through the other lung, went through a rib (3/8" thick and hinged) and stopped against the hide on the off side.  The FPE at impact I recall working out from the camp chrono'ing that load, was 200fpe.

The moose took off like a horse out of the starting gate, full bore and dropped dead mid-stride 40 yards later.

Please do use FPE as a number having anything remotely to do with killing power of large game.  It is all about adequate penetration and a decent sized "shot" placed in the right place.

[Dphariss]

With decent sights, an aperture in my case, 6-8" groups are doable at 200 if the wind cooperates. At least thats what I got with my 54 a few years ago.
300 yards gets tougher due to sights and the amount of bullet drop and the effect of velocity variations which can cause large vertical dispersion if the SD is very high, like much over 10 fps. Since this is tough with a RB there will likely be some vertical in any 300 yard group and a light breeze can cause several feet of drift.

Dan

[Daryl]

Fired a couple shots at the 250 yard ram at Hefley Creek Rendezvous 2 weeks ago, using my 20 bore flint smoothbore.  The first shot had exactly the right elevation, but struck about 25 feet to the right. The second shot, identical hold, hit the ground about 20feet short of the gong- perhaps 10' low - LOL- interesting but not surprising results. I used my regular 3 drams 2G GOEX load with a tightly patched .600" pure lead ball.

[Molly]

Daryl:  I have seen that photo before...I think...and I'll bet you are actually shooting ducks on the fly!

But just a serious observation.  I have seen many shooters shooting off hand and there are some who seem to put a little extra in the post ignition movement.  I did it as well on the first few shots off hand but I have also noted that when these same shooters, and myself as well, shoot from a bench rest there is no such movement.  It seems to me that if the firing of the gun generated that much movement when off hand, it would at least jump off the rest a little.  When I shoot from a bench (right handed) I fold my left arm back with my elbow pointing down range and palm of the left hand flat on the table.  Thus there is nothing to hold the barrel down.  BANG!  And the rifle barely, if at all,  moves.

Not being critical just wondering?

[Hungry Horse]

 IMO, anybody that take a shot at big game beyond 125 yards with a muzzleloader has some serious hunting ethics issues. I've had to do too many unethical hunters dirty work over the past forty years I guess.

         Hungry Horse

[little joe]

Frizzen That is some target. I cannot do that at 25 yds. How about posting some photos of the gun?

[bob in the woods]

We were talking about long range shooting, not hunting. Having said that, Opinions are exactly that, and everybody has their own. I do consider myself to be an ethical hunter, but I will say that if a moose presents itself broadside to me at 150 yards or so, my .62 with a hunting charge of powder is more than up to job.  That is fact, not opinion.  Now, if that were a deer, I wouldn't take the shot. [smaller sized kill zone]  . The farthest I ever shot a deer was at just over 100 yards ..on the other side of my beaver pond.
I know the range, and as luck would have it, the deer was beside my steel ram target. Based on what I've seen at the range, some folks shouldn't be shooting at any game past 50 yards ! 

[Longknife]

Long range shooting was common to the men of the Lewis and Clark expedition:


 Lewis.....Monday May 12th 1806.

" shot at a mark with the indians, struck the mark with 2 balls.    distn. 220 yds."

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

It is not a difficult task to find the limit of your effective hunting range.  For deer, if you can hit a pie plate every time without missing, that is your effective range.  For moose, a beach ball sized target.  Bear in mind, that is almost never a perfectly clear target, like a pie plate or a beach ball, but one that is obscured by willows, shadows, bad angles, etc.  If you practice these types of shots, you'll be more likely successful when the time comes.

I once did an experiment using my Brown Bess 10 bore for moose.  I placed a target 25 yds away but between me and the target, there was 25 yards of willows and poplar brush so thick you had to continuously turn sideways to navigate it.  I used a load of 120 grains of FFG GOEX and a ~600 grain ball in a thick patch.  I was not able to keep all the balls on the 15" target from 25 yards, but from 10, I was able to hit without missing.  10 yds then is my effective range with that howitzer on moose, under those conditions.

[Daryl]

Daryl:  I have seen that photo before...I think...and I'll bet you are actually shooting ducks on the fly!

But just a serious observation.  I have seen many shooters shooting off hand and there are some who seem to put a little extra in the post ignition movement.  I did it as well on the first few shots off hand but I have also noted that when these same shooters, and myself as well, shoot from a bench rest there is no such movement.  It seems to me that if the firing of the gun generated that much movement when off hand, it would at least jump off the rest a little.  When I shoot from a bench (right handed) I fold my left arm back with my elbow pointing down range and palm of the left hand flat on the table.  Thus there is nothing to hold the barrel down.  BANG!  And the rifle barely, if at all,  moves.

Not being critical just wondering?

Standing,\, ie: offhand (as in "shooting off the hands") that is the recoil with 140gr. of 2f GOEX.  My 1986 through 2006, 165gr. GO
ES, was my "Normal" hunting, load and it kicks a bit more.
Shooting off the bench, I hold the forend, gripping it with my left hand, the back of my hand on the bag. Left to jump, it does and then comes down on the bag - I do not like that. As well, the POI is higher if the gun is allowed to jump off the bag (not held).

[rfd]

most anything realistic is routinely doable.  put down the pencil and shoot, refine the load and sights, better the aim and hold, and most things are possible with a round ball at really long yardages.  aperture sights are a boon for distance shooting (200 yards and waaay out).  while bpcr is my main game with a .45-70 rolling block, i still have a hankering to put a .50 ball well into the paper @ 200 yards.  it'll get done eventually.  it just takes commitment and effort.  i don't see it as that big a deal.  and heavy and slow is usually best for consistency.

as to how "those old-time ball-rifle shooters popped those officers at such outraaageous distances", luck was a large factor, imho.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

The evidence of recoil looks different shooting offhand than it does from a bench, even with the same load.  From the bench, there is little if any rearward body movement...your butt is firmly attached to the seat, both elbows to the table and the rifle on the rest.  The recoil is almost totally absorbed by your body.  From the offhand position, the recoil pushes your body rearward, bending at the waist, with nothing but its own inertia to keep it stationery.  The same recoil is much less 'felt' offhand, than it is from the bench.  I have fired Daryl's .69 cal English sporter, and believe me, there is no amplification in that image.

[oldtravler61]

My two cents is. The boy's back then had one gun an they dang well knew  how to use it.

[Candle Snuffer]

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=28771.0

If anyone's intersted in giving 200 yards a try, here's a link.

[George Sutton]

I attended the 18th century rifle frolic at Altoona PA this past weekend. One of the events was the recreation of Tim Murphy's famous shot at the Battle of Saratoga. The match was 3 shots at 280 yards off a standing rest. There were three shooters that hit the target all 3 times. There was one shooter that hit the target twice with a smoothbore. They also shot the Ephriam Brank match at 260 yards but I don't have those results.

Centershot

[Dennis Glazener]

There was one shooter that hit the target twice with a smoothbore.

WOW once, maybe luck, twice pretty good.
Dennis

[oldtravler61]

 ;)All I know is what my Dad always said. Fear the man who only owns one gun. Because more than likely he knows how to use it.

[Daryl]

;)All I know is what my Dad always said. Fear the man who only owns one gun. Because more than likely he knows how to use it.

There is truth in that.

One entire fall, winter, spring and the following summer, I shot nothing but the .69 on the trail - every Sunday except for 2. I used 82gr. 2F for most of the targets as they are inside 100yards. For the longer ones, I did drop in 140gr. 2F. 
As that shooting year went on, misses became fewer and fewer.
At Hefely Creek Rendezvous that August/Sept, I won 4 out of 5 events I entered with that rifle.  The 4th event was the BP ctg. event, but I still placed in the middle of the pack - happy with that result shooting out to 250yards only, and had 4/5 hits.  The 4 first place wins felt like a nice reward for shooting "The "B" all winter - just about every weekend.  I went through 25 pounds of powder that year and a LOT of lead at 482gr. per shot.

Becoming familiar (again) with the gun makes a huge difference.

[bob in the woods]

Amen to that.  4 years ago I decided that I would only use my smoothbore for that year. I used it for all my shooting, and hunting.  It helped me harvest everything from turkey to geese to deer and black bear.
I had absolute confidence in it.

[buffalo]

Any pictures from hefley

[Daryl]

I just looked for the web site and could not find it, Sry. I didn't take any pictures this year.

[Hungry Horse]

 A couple of points to consider. Most round balls at 200 yards,and beyond, have about the velocity of a little league pitchers fast ball.  The old timers would track a cripple for a lot farther, and with more skill, than most modern hunters.
 More than once I have run into a hunter in the woods that took a shot at a deer, did a quick thirty,or forty yard circle, declared it a miss, and went on hunting. Shots above the lungs, and beneath the spine, don't bleed much, neither do heart shots, for obvious reasons. Deer shot through the heart, can run a long way on fear alone.
  Every time I read a magazine article where the hunter has two,or three, declared misses, before they finally kill something I'm more than a little suspicious.

   Hungry Horse

[oldtravler61]

I'm with HH. I think alot of people have lost or were never taught how to really hunt. Lot of hunters have not learned to track an they give up to easy. I was lucky my Dad an Grandfather were sticklers about respecting the game an when an when not to shoot.

[bones92]

Great comment, Hungry Horse.  I've only had one deer I couldn't recover over the years, and it was not for lack of searching.

I would love to shoot targets or gongs at 200+ yards, just for fun.  But I'll probably keep my white-tail shots at 60-80 yards, and only if I'm REALLY familiar with that particular muzzleloader and load.

[Candle Snuffer]

Long Range shooting for recreational purpose is enjoyable at times. Hunting? IMHO keep it within the range you're comfortable with and know you have a very high percentage of a good kill shot.

I agree most (modern) hunters entering into the hunting fields today have little or no skills at all when it comes to scouting, stalking and tracking. Many seem to care less if they make a clean humane kill shot as they are more interested in the size of rack a buck has. Many can't even tell an Elk from a Mule Deer.

I have not seen this trait from the traditional muzzle loading hunters. As a whole we seem to be more a'toned to nature and our side lock muzzle loading firearms we use. We still take pride in our hunt and respect the wildlife we hunt.