whens enough enough

[yip]

  when do you say enough when sand finishing your stock? i talked to a wood worker and he says finish  sanding with 320 paper, i'm sure the old timers didn't have that fine of paper, just wonder'n..............yip

[rich pierce]

If I am sanding I am going to 400.

[PPatch]

Be sure and whisker between sanding's. I go 320 then whisker one more time and  rub it down hard with a crumpled up paper bag before going to the finish. And no, ye old timers didn't have 320 sandpaper, nor any as far as I know...

It is a good feeling to finally get to the point of applying finish isn't it. 

dp

[Dphariss]

They did have, I have been told, leather and abrasives. Sand paper without the paper part.
I sand as far as I think is necessary. A smooth finish on the wood greatly reduces finishing time and makes for a better looking stock.
The other option is to lightly burnish in the seal coat of finish this will polish the stock and iron stick down whiskers.
I would not do this with a fast drying finish though.

And then..... "Although Isaac Fisher JR. patented the first process for mass manufacturing of sandpaper in the United States in 1834, sandpaper was used as far back as the 13th century in China."  from abrasivesoasis.com
 Note it was for MASS PRODUCTION of sand paper.

Dan

[smallpatch]

320 max.....whiskered till smooth,  If I sand at all.
If a good piece of wood.....scrapers only.
I just feel like we're trying to recreate an Early American art form, and we should try to be more authentic when we can.  I don't want a shiny grand piano finish.  I don't believe our predecessors did either.

[oldtravler61]

Heard onetime that they might have used shark skin. Any truth to that? An yeah after the shark is not in the bottom mood. Just wondering

[James Wilson Everett]

Guys,

Sandpaper was used from very early times, as far back as the 13th century.  Modern sandpaper started to be mass produced in 1833 in England and 1834 in America.  This sandpaper was actually called "glass paper" as the abrasive was crushed glass rather than sand.  The process was patented in 1834 by Isaac Fisher, June 1834, patent number X8,244.  Prior to this patent the manufacture and use of sandpaper was dependent on the artisan using the sandpaper.  They made their own, but certainly the early glues and abrasives were such that the sandpaper was probably nowhere near the quality product available to us today.  Research in the US patent records can often help us answer such questions.  Check out datamp.org.

Jim

[jerrywh]

 I don't care what the old times did. Some where good a lot of them were mediocre. I go to 350 grit. after whiskering.

[bonron]

When did scraping begin?

[flehto]

Some small aeras are just scraped and left but most of the stock is finished w/ 220 grit and also whiskered w/ the 220.  After staining, the entire stock is rubbed w/ 0000 wool to remove any left over whiskers and to also remove any unabsorbed stain. yields a very smooth stock....Fred

[Mike Brooks]

220

[yip]

  i've been told to use a sanding block and 320 carborundum paper ( boy i hope i spelled that right!!!!) instead of  regular 320 sand paper.  true? 

[Mark Elliott]

I don't use abrasives on stocks.    I only scrape.   All my whiskering is done with a double edged utility knife blade flattened on a diamond stone.   Sandpaper will not produce as good a finish unless you go up to about 600 grit or better.   I use such abrasive pads for pen turning because of the difficultly scraping such small diameters due to the exaggerated cross grain.   However,  it doesn't take stain as well as a scraped surface.      

[Tim Crosby]

And no, ye old timers didn't have 320 sandpaper, nor any as far as I know...

It is a good feeling to finally get to the point of applying finish isn't it.  

dp

 Reference to Sandpaper:
 
 http://www.flintriflesmith.com/WritingandResearch/Research/sandpaper.htm  Tim C.

[Acer Saccharum]

When did scraping begin?

When the new golden age of gun building was established.   

[rich pierce]

When did scraping begin?

When they were still using flint tools to make their gunstocks. 

[yip]

okay guys; but does finish sanding apply to the craving stage? i've been schooled by a woodworker on this as far as sanding goes. i build a few rifles before and had no problems with sanding by hand and finishing with 320 grid and 0000 steel wool...................yip

[PPatch]

 Reference to Sandpaper:
 
 http://www.flintriflesmith.com/WritingandResearch/Research/sandpaper.htm  Tim C.

Thanks Tim, interesting

"Abrasive paper (both sand and glass) was apparently known by the mid-eighteenth century but rarely used. The problem seems to have been the expense. Sandpaper is mentioned in the context of military armorers' supplies but hardly ever in general store or gunsmith inventories."

If the gunsmiths couldn't generally afford it I wonder who, what trade, besides armorers' used it in enough volume to warrant importing it? High end furniture makers perhaps although scraping is a tradition in that trade also.

dave

[PPatch]

okay guys; but does finish sanding apply to the craving stage? i've been schooled by a woodworker on this as far as sanding goes. i build a few rifles before and had no problems with sanding by hand and finishing with 320 grid and 0000 steel wool...................yip

Relief carving happens after the gun is ready for finish, sanding over it would obviously ruin it. Some discrete sanding might be employed in leveling around about the carving but generally that is done by scraping at the last after employing a chisel to get it as level as possible. That being said different folks approach leveling and such using their own techniques.

Acer has a must excellent tutorial on stamping in relief carving here: http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=29820.0

In it you can observe that the stock has been taken to final surface before the relief carving commences. After doing all of that you'd not want to sand over it, most relief carving is quite low and is a sort of masterful illusion, but there it is.

Some, including myself, burnish over it - I use a crumpled up paper bag all over the stock as a last smoothing before applying finish. A technique I learned on this site.

dave

[rich pierce]

I avoid steel wool.  Had the speckles once.

[dogcatcher]

And no, ye old timers didn't have 320 sandpaper, nor any as far as I know...

It is a good feeling to finally get to the point of applying finish isn't it.  

dp

 Reference to Sandpaper:
 
 http://www.flintriflesmith.com/WritingandResearch/Research/sandpaper.htm  Tim C.

The link referenced to rottenstone sort of implies that they used it and probably pumice.  I not sure but I believe that is equivalent to 600 grit paper.  My guess is they might have used water and used it both as a sanding and polishing agent.   

I only use rottenstone on finishes, and after the finish is well dried, no smell left.  I mix it with water and gently rub the finish, sort of like polishing the paint on your car with a rubbing compound.   Now my curiosity make me wonder if it could be used on bare wood, but it is like a super fine powdered sand, so I would test that on some scrap.

[Mark Elliott]

Scraping was used commonly for both wood and metal finishing up til the 20th century.   My grandfather who apprenticed as a machinist in the 1920's, used scrapers to finish soft metals.   He gave me his scrapers to use on lead and pewter.  They were used regularly when poured metal bearings and bronze bearings were used, before ball bearings were common.   Scraping and burnishing were the primary method of finishing until the 20th century. 

[Sweeney]

What about the plant we call 'horse-tail'? It grows profusely in my region, is abrasive, and I am told was often used for sanding wood. And could there be other similar plants that were used?