hawken ram rod question

[Joe S.]

On original long stocks the ram rod sits pretty much tight up to the nose cap with little or no gap between.On mine I dropped the barrel down in the channel a hair (to help rid the slab sidedness)as well as scraped the ram rod channel about as much as I can.After inletting the pipes and the nose cap I will have about a 1/16 maybe a little more gap  between the rod and nose cap.I could go with it or taper the channel abit but I want the pipes reveal to be the same so probably not.I can't do more with the channel  because the forward lock bolt is a whisker away from being in the channel.So see if this fix is ok, what about soaking the last couple inches of ram rod in water.Let it swell abit,let it dry out and sand it to fit snug under the nose,fit thru the first pipe,illusion is everything.

[okieboy]

 Soaking it in water will swell it, but as it dries it will shrink back. Why not start with an over-sized ramrod and taper it fit in the pipes?

[Joe S.]

better yet,good idea,thanks

[Daryl]

Acer sells a rod tapering tool that is incredibly easy to use for the task of tapering or reducing rods.

[rich pierce]

On earlier period fullstocks I start with a thicker rod and then taper it  right where the ramrod groove tapers down to the nosecap.  Not sure this would look right on a Hawken.

[Joe S.]

Thanks Daryl,tell you what's not helping the bent ram rod.Been tinkering with the scrapers and files and have now no gap between the nose and channel.The rod is pretty tight going thru the pipes,yet I still have a gap.I did not pin the pipes yet and am going to maybe try inletting them a hair deeper,maybe get a little more out of it.Rod kinda has a slight hook at each end.Flipping it around helps but I will be dammed if I'm going to mark the rod with an arrow,this end up

[Joe S.]

Rich that was my thinking and we are not talking huge gap so if all else fails I will do that.I really don't think you will see a bulbous end on it.Me thinks I'm getting a little anal bout things.

[okieboy]

Me thinks I'm getting a little anal bout things.

 According to us compulsive-obsessives, that's what its all about.
 

[smylee grouch]

If all else fails you could get a straighter ramrod or isn't that an option?  Its nice to have a spare ramrod anyway.

[Bob Roller]

On earlier period fullstocks I start with a thicker rod and then taper it  right where the ramrod groove tapers down to the nosecap.  Not sure this would look right on a Hawken.

Some,if not many Hawken rifles IF they are the configuration usually associated today with them had a tapered rod so it wouldn't hit the front of the long trigger bar frequently seen on these rifles.

Bob Roller

[smallpatch]

FYI, we are NOT talking about a ramrod problem.  We are talking a web problem.  I'm assuming a precarve?!?
Tapering a larger diameter rod minimize the appearance of the issue, but not eliminate it.
Setting the pipes deeper will just add more issues.  Lowering the barrel will do,the same.
So taper a 7/16 or ½" rod, and make a thinner web next time.  Shoot it and forget about it.

[Joe S.]

Small patch the web if fine and is as thin as it needs to be.After taking a real good look at things and some head scratching I have an issue I did not see.Yes its a precarves but the problem is the nose piece itself.its store bought and the front part with the octagon should not have been as deep as it is.My fault,as I inlet it as is not checking it and going by looks and the reveal of the barrel and stock.While the piece is tight to ram rod channel in the rear the nose piece rides up hill a   hair where it make contact with the barrel at the muzzle.The slight hook at the end ram rod made it look worse.I'm thinking of making a front piece and soldering it to the front and recut the octagon or maybe getting another to see if it can work.I can also maybe shave a hair more out of the channel and take the rear of the nose piece up a hair leveling it off.Like I said I'm getting a little anal about things being perfect as I can get em.Learning things as I go,first build. Taylor said in a past thread making your own nose piece custom to the gun eleviats this.

[petera]

This is a very strange discussion.  I take it you are all talking about a full stock Hawken.  I hope the ramrod groove and hole is 3/8" diameter.  I cannot understand Bob Roller's comment about tapering the ramrod end to avoid the front bar of the set triggers:  if your hole interferes with your triggers, A) the hole is too long, B) the architecture is crazy.  Now, the ramrod groove should be no deeper than 1/8", revealing 1/4" of the rod.  This is the traditional technique, used on all longrifles - including the Hawken Bros, trained by their father, Christian, in Maryland.  Next, is the outer end of the rod:  for .50 caliber and above, I start with a 7'16" rod, and taper most of its length to 3/8", so the ramming end has a flared tip, nearer to bore diameter.  But this is not at all necessary.  You can, if you are sane, ram a .54  (actually a .530") basll down the bore as easily with a 3/8" rod as with a 7/16" tip.  Lastly, anybody who tries to fit a boughten muzzlecap lto a stock is nuts.  Make a cap to fit the existing relationships.  All shown in my book.   Regards,   Peter A. Alexander

[Bob Roller]

This is a very strange discussion.  I take it you are all talking about a full stock Hawken.  I hope the ramrod groove and hole is 3/8" diameter.  I cannot understand Bob Roller's comment about tapering the ramrod end to avoid the front bar of the set triggers:  if your hole interferes with your triggers, A) the hole is too long, B) the architecture is crazy.  Now, the ramrod groove should be no deeper than 1/8", revealing 1/4" of the rod.  This is the traditional technique, used on all longrifles - including the Hawken Bros, trained by their father, Christian, in Maryland.  Next, is the outer end of the rod:  for .50 caliber and above, I start with a 7'16" rod, and taper most of its length to 3/8", so the ramming end has a flared tip, nearer to bore diameter.  But this is not at all necessary.  You can, if you are sane, ram a .54  (actually a .530") basll down the bore as easily with a 3/8" rod as with a 7/16" tip.  Lastly, anybody who tries to fit a boughten muzzlecap lto a stock is nuts.  Make a cap to fit the existing relationships.  All shown in my book.   Regards,   Peter A. Alexander

The late Tom Dawson said that was the reason for the tapered loading rod in many Hawken rifles and I am certain HE knew what he was looking at and talking about.

Bob Roller

[Joe S.]

with all do respect Mr. pertera this is my first go around and bought a parts kit.It came with a cap and I agree making one to fit the rifle would be the ticket.I will make this one work and the rest of the dimensions you mention are going to be pretty close to what I will end up with,give or take.It is a long stock and am not sure but maybe Bobs talking about a different style rifle.My ram rod will not get close to the trigger bars.You are correct a tapered rod cures the gap but I would prefer to try and correct the problem first.Things will be just fine and I don't think I need to buy your book to figure it out,thanks anyway

[Joe S.]

Bob are you talking about a half stock?

[Bob Roller]

This is a very strange discussion.  I take it you are all talking about a full stock Hawken.  I hope the ramrod groove and hole is 3/8" diameter.  I cannot understand Bob Roller's comment about tapering the ramrod end to avoid the front bar of the set triggers:  if your hole interferes with your triggers, A) the hole is too long, B) the architecture is crazy.  Now, the ramrod groove should be no deeper than 1/8", revealing 1/4" of the rod.  This is the traditional technique, used on all longrifles - including the Hawken Bros, trained by their father, Christian, in Maryland.  Next, is the outer end of the rod:  for .50 caliber and above, I start with a 7'16" rod, and taper most of its length to 3/8", so the ramming end has a flared tip, nearer to bore diameter.  But this is not at all necessary.  You can, if you are sane, ram a .54  (actually a .530") basll down the bore as easily with a 3/8" rod as with a 7/16" tip.  Lastly, anybody who tries to fit a boughten muzzlecap lto a stock is nuts.  Make a cap to fit the existing relationships.  All shown in my book.   Regards,   Peter A. Alexander

The late Tom Dawson said that was the reason for the tapered loading rod in many Hawken rifles and I am certain HE knew what he was looking at and talking about.

Bob Roller

I was NOT talking about a full stock Hawken and rarely ever think of them.

Bob Roller

[Joe S.]

Mines a full stock,sorry Bob that you ended up in the line of fire,This is why I should just build my rifle and quit asking questions, to many @#$%/!! storms about the details.Just real hard not having an original to work off of and just lookin at pictures

[Topknot]

Joe, in order for you to be truly proud of your hawken ,you need to ask the necessary questions as you go along with your build. There are several members here who really specialize in hawkens. There is no telling how many hawkens that herb has built. I would start with him. Like I said there are many here. There is a member named bama that has experience with hawkens and also taylor s. (I cant spell his last name off-hand). I know that some members are real fast to start an argument if some one else dis-agrees with them. You just have to look over them and keep asking questions until your fully satisfied.

                                                                                       topknot

[Joe S.]

I know,just a little frustrated with the other fellow trying to start something with Bob when he's just trying to help me.I will have plenty more questions and will ask them.I'm trying to figure out the picture thing and think maybe a picture is worth a thousand words,making the discussion short and to the point.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I would never claim to be an expert, but I've built about two hundred Hawken rifles in half and full stock varieties.  The nose piece on the full stock rifle is not grooved to enclose the road...simply a rounded bottom.  And you are all correct...the Ted Cash and other nose pieces are too shallow - perhaps only 3/16" and rather flattish on the bottom.  The examples of full stocked Hawken rifles in Jim Gordon's excellent work (Vol. 3 - Great Gunmakers of the Early West (or some such) are all around 1/4" deep and rounded nicely.  Still I have seen examples where the rod does not contact the underside of the nose piece, and I agree, this looks amateurish.  You must remember, ram rods are replaced many times over the life of the rifle, and they are not all made well.
Starting with a 1/2" or 7/16" rod blank and tapering it to leave a fat muzzle end is an excellent way of disguising this fault (in nose pieces)  It is very ;traditional too.

I've been hailed for supper...more later.

[Don Stith]

Taylor
  Don't intend to pick on you but one of my original fullstock Hawkens does have a grooved nose cap.  How many reproductions you have built  is not a determination of what is correct, Believe we had that discussion at Dixon's a few years back when you had only built 176.
 I have a different opinion on why you should use tapered rods.
 There is less chance of a tapered rod  getting stuck in the forearm when it swells from humidity changes. It just also happens to be HC for what little that may be worth

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Don, I knew as soon as I typed that comment about the rod grooved nose piece, that there'd be an example out there somewhere to refute it.  Gordon's book only has a few full stocked examples of Hawken rifles, and it seems to me they all have no groove, and are quite roundish.  One of the issues with the store bought nose cap, is that it requires a stock with a fairly wide cross section...heavy along the barrel channel.  I agree with Peter A. that making this simple nose cap is a better way to go, and it is a fairly easy and straight forward process, yielding considerable satisfaction.
And again Don, a person can sharpen pencils thousands of times, but still not be very good at it!!!

[Joe S.]

true enough making my own would have been the best way to go .This being my first build and am building it in kinda spartan fashion with not much in the way of tools.Minimal tools ,cordlessdrill,hand tools ect.Portable vise used on the deck or kitchen table or somewhere in between.Maybe down the road after getting my feet wet I will attempt to fabricate some parts.I'm pretty sure after a little TLC I can make this one look as good as possible. The gap is  almost gone after a few little adjustments it should look good.May not be as round as handmade but close.After looking at many original pictures as I can some of them appear to be a hair on the flat side vs.round so it is what it is.I will let you folks decide if I did well or not,thanks for the feed back,Joe

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Yes, Joe - by all means post some pictures here.  And it's easy for me and perhaps other here, to forget that not everyone has 60 years worth of accumulated tools, jigs and machinery.  We all started for the most part, just as you are... I came away from home in 1968 with a six quart basket containing a couple of antique chisels, a pair of pliers and a couple old screw drivers.