Author Topic: Historically Correct Flintlocks  (Read 32577 times)

Offline stuart cee dub

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 461
Re: Historically Correct Flintlocks
« Reply #50 on: December 02, 2015, 01:52:51 AM »
Reading the auction description ,I'm not buying the idea that this particular lock was a flint lock at any point. Looking at the tight fit of the drum to the lockplate (as it should be to be well supported )the lock itself does not look like a percussion from a flint conversion to me .The holes do seem odd as JTR suggests .Maybe the hardware store lock replaced the original flint ? Hard to say .
If so it was neatly done .

Some of the ''made for the local trade'' Hawken squirrel rifles were made more cheaply with this kind of spurred guard but so did Ohio rifles .It was a shop not a factory so they certainly had lots of parts on hand and they made guns to order.And parts or even whole rifles could be had less expensively from back east .This probable had some restoration work to it somewhere along the 165 year time line would be my guess.The drum looks almost too nice .

Maybe with the gold rush and the increase in demand there were some short cuts taken for less expensive rifles for the less well heeled .Spurious S.Hawken marks are not unknown either.

The low price point price seems to reflect some of these questions.
Thanks Spikefest for bringing this to the discussion. Rock Island does do a nice job on their photography.


PS I like your idea Mike B. that this was worked on in the last 50 yrs .That drum looks like recent production and the auction house stated there was some refinish work as well .Parts recycling is certainly a possibility too.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2015, 02:02:33 AM by stuart cee dub »

Offline Bob Roller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9770
Re: Historically Correct Flintlocks
« Reply #51 on: December 02, 2015, 06:03:08 PM »
What is wrong with a Hardware Store lock? Lots of rifles built with them by lots of makers. Looks original to the rifle to me. Don't understand the extra holes in the plate.  Lots of other strange things on that piece. 

I had a new old stock hardware store lock here for years.It was a percussion Goulcher and it would have had ro be remade to upgrade it to the status of junk. I gave it to Less Barber.

Bob Roller

Offline JBJ

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 663
Re: Historically Correct Flintlocks
« Reply #52 on: December 02, 2015, 07:57:06 PM »
I have seen this same pattern of lock and the same engraving at the tail of the lock numerous times. Owned a percussion Ohio rifle at one point that had the identical lock - including the engraving. The drum, to my eyes, looks very modern (check out the drums at TOW) and the "cleanout" screw appears vented as well. Am I alone in questionung the vintage of the DST? The form of back trigger in particular caught my eye (???).
J.B.

Offline Acer Saccharum

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19311
    • Thomas  A Curran
Re: Historically Correct Flintlocks
« Reply #53 on: December 03, 2015, 06:08:10 AM »
Drum looks new, so does hammer.
Tom Curran's web site : http://monstermachineshop.net
Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

Offline JCKelly

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1434
Re: Historically Correct Flintlocks
« Reply #54 on: December 03, 2015, 06:26:15 AM »
Okieboy I believe your original question had to do with the historical correctness of using a flint lock on a half-stock rifle. Seems to me the best we can do, with current information, is to speculate that yeah, they shoulda done it, or maybe the odd 1/2 stock flint was made. But there were @!*% few, if any, of them.

I don't like to be wrong so it pains me to say I took another look at my favorite half-stock flintlocks in Dillin, C T  Stahl and J G Wren. Hemm. Both use just one lockbolt, unusual though not impossible, for a flintlock. My speculation is that someone a century ago thought it would look cool to convert these nice long 1/2 stocks to flint. Of course I don't know this for sure, at least without seeing those rifles in person.

Looked through James Gordon'sGreat Gunmakers of the Early West, Volume II/i] The nearest I saw was a percussion conversion of a rifle by Ghrisky,page 288. But they noted if may well have been cut down to 1/2 stock professionally at the time of conversion.

Yeah. I'd say stay with a full stock if you plan to use a flint lock on a long gun.

As far as the Peter White rifle in Dillin, there were two different Peter Whites. One made Bedford style rifles, the other was in Maryland. Haven't looked through any books on Maryland rifles for pix of MD's P White.

Never could find anything in Dillin about rifle dating, except where he had a dated specimen. No mention at all was made of the various "schools" such as Lehigh Valley. I think Errors in Dillin should be a separate thread. Might start one if I get brave, or nuts enough (wonder why this note stayed in italics after Volume II?).

Offline oldtravler61

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4447
  • We all make mistakes.
Re: Historically Correct Flintlocks
« Reply #55 on: December 03, 2015, 06:32:54 AM »
Don't want to start a war. But gunbuilder has to half stock flinters up for sale. Numbers r 52235925 and 528116036 curios to see what the guys in the know thank of them. Personally there missing alot. Anyway take a look if yeah want.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2015, 02:33:02 AM by Ky-Flinter »

Offline Benedict

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 261
Re: Historically Correct Flintlocks
« Reply #56 on: December 03, 2015, 07:34:43 PM »
Am I wrong in thinking that William Clark's "Small" rifle was a half stock?

I don't have my references with me so cannot double check.

Bruce

Offline flinchrocket

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1750
Re: Historically Correct Flintlocks
« Reply #57 on: December 03, 2015, 08:35:42 PM »
I'm pretty certain the John Small rifle carried by William Clark was a fullstock.

  Bruce, perhaps your thinking of the Vigo rifle, it's a halfstock and was originally flint but may have
been fullstock in its beginning also.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2015, 09:35:27 PM by flinchrocket »

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13415
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: Historically Correct Flintlocks
« Reply #58 on: December 03, 2015, 08:41:15 PM »
Don't want to start a war. But gunbuilder has to half stock flinters up for sale. Numbers r 52235925 and 528116036 curios to see what the guys in the know thank of them. Personally there missing alot. Anyway take a look if yeah want.
I don't know who you talk of or what guns , but if they are contemporary it really makes no difference.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline JCKelly

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1434
Re: Historically Correct Flintlocks
« Reply #59 on: December 04, 2015, 12:15:37 AM »
Yeah, it is my Scots-Irish heritage, but I do love a good "discussion"

So, who is or how do I find "gunbuilder"?

"But gunbuilder has to half stock flinters up for sale. Numbers r 52235925 and 528116036"

Personally I am cheering for a good half-sock flinter but I have yet to see one, except those two in Dillin which I now doubt

With respect to   http://www.rockislandauction.com/viewitem/aid/66/lid/1135   I agree with what has been said, and would add: This lockplate shows no evidence of ever having had a second side nail. The stock also has place for only one sidenail. Guess this could be another discussion, but was it not exceedingly uncommon for a flint rifle to have only one side nail (lock bolt)?

I look at a lot of auction descriptions and even buy on occasion. One thing I'd say is that the very best photos one will see on any gun are in someone's auction. The quality and details are rarely matched by any gun book. 

The accuracy of description of some houses is another thing. Not uncommonly some "antique" is clearly by a contemporary maker.

Once again time to go to my basement library. Wife has taken to calling our upstairs computer room & library (90% my stuff) the Situation Room.  Too many cop shows?

Offline Ky-Flinter

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7545
  • Born in Kentucke, just 250 years late
Re: Historically Correct Flintlocks
« Reply #60 on: December 04, 2015, 02:39:00 AM »
Don't want to start a war. But gunbuilder has to half stock flinters up for sale. Numbers r 52235925 and 528116036 curios to see what the guys in the know thank of them. Personally there missing alot. Anyway take a look if yeah want.

oldtravler61 is referencing GunBroker

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=528235925#PIC

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=528116036#PIC
The lock on this one is in amazing condition! ;)

-Ron
« Last Edit: December 04, 2015, 02:46:09 AM by Ky-Flinter »
Ron Winfield

Life is too short to hunt with an ugly gun. -Nate McKenzie

Offline jdm

  • member 2
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1453
Re: Historically Correct Flintlocks
« Reply #61 on: December 04, 2015, 03:18:35 AM »
As far as the Peter White rifle in Dillin, there were two different Peter Whites. One made Bedford style rifles, the other was in Maryland. Haven't looked through any books on Maryland rifles for pix of MD's P White.

I don't mean to be picky  but I believe it was the same Peter  White. He moved from Maryland to Bedford and changed his style. Them moved again to Uniontown and he got away from the Bedford style.   JIM
« Last Edit: December 04, 2015, 04:03:34 AM by Ky-Flinter »
JIM

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13415
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: Historically Correct Flintlocks
« Reply #62 on: December 04, 2015, 03:19:09 AM »
I will reserve comment on both of those guns since they are currently for sale.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13415
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: Historically Correct Flintlocks
« Reply #63 on: December 04, 2015, 03:20:49 AM »
[quote author=JCKelly link



As far as the Peter White rifle in Dillin, there were two different Peter Whites. One made Bedford style rifles, the other was in Maryland. Haven't looked through any books on Maryland rifles for pix of MD's P White.

I don't mean to be picky  but I believe it was the same Peter  White. He moved from Maryland to Bedford and changed his style. Them moved again to Uniontown and he got away from the Bedford style.   JIM
I had a Peter white in my shop a couple decades ago. It was made in bedford Co. before the "Bedford" style became popular.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline oldtravler61

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4447
  • We all make mistakes.
Re: Historically Correct Flintlocks
« Reply #64 on: December 04, 2015, 04:49:32 AM »
Sorry gang an thanks Ron. It is gunbroker. Not builder.  An I have little or no opinion on this at all. Just thought the experts would take a look.Personally I think they were mid to latter 1800 . But really have no idea.

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13415
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: Historically Correct Flintlocks
« Reply #65 on: December 04, 2015, 03:07:08 PM »
One is New  england, 1/2 stocks with a wood under rib are common there. The other is Belgian and a straight rifled fowling gun !/2 stocks are common there too.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline JCKelly

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1434
Re: Historically Correct Flintlocks
« Reply #66 on: December 04, 2015, 06:24:40 PM »
JDM yes, I was in error.

The same Peter White started out in Maryland then moved to Pennsylvania.

So with respect to Plate 93, #5, which Dillin calls a Peter White, my remaining defenses of my idol John Dillin are:

1. Kaufmann (1960, first edition) notes on Page 75 there was (not illustrated) a flintlock Peter white rifle dated 1794, which shows no Bedford influence in its style.

2. George Shumway published an extended version of The Kentucky Rifle which included a section by Calvin Hetrick The Bedford County Rifle and its Makers. The flintlock Peter White shown in Plate 127 looks nothing at all like a Bedford rifle.

I have enjoyed this discussion, it got me to reading some of my library a bit closer. Personally I would still maintain that whoever (outside of New England) may have produced half-stock American flintlock rifles they were a rarity. I'd say to be correct one should install one's flint lock on a fullstock long gun.

I still like those half-stock flintlocks in Dillin, plates 7 % 8, real or not. Its the ten-year old in me.

Online JTR

  • member 2
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4377
Re: Historically Correct Flintlocks
« Reply #67 on: December 04, 2015, 07:11:19 PM »
I consider Dillin to be the anchor for all the other books to come. He was an early pioneer with the insight to 'write this stuff down', and to that we own our gratitude. But like a lot of pioneers there were a few mistakes. Personally I don't care about the mistakes, and all have been corrected by now. And since the picture quality isn't as good as now, I find the various chapters to be of most interest.
And like a lot of other guys, wonder where all those early collection guns have gone. Some are known, but a lot have seemingly vanished. If you own gun # 3 on plate 93, count yourself lucky!
John
John Robbins

Offline Clark Badgett

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2265
  • Oklahoma
Re: Historically Correct Flintlocks
« Reply #68 on: December 05, 2015, 03:45:17 AM »
As usual EK is correct
 Even the first edition  requires a little imagination. Don't remember where but there is at least one picture of a Union- Snyder county rifle in there that is labelled unsigned
  It appears in one of the later books maybe Kaufmann, with name township and date
 I assume JC Kelly meant to reference plate 93 and 94 instead of page 92 to 94.
Lost it but once had a photo from a WWII scrap drive in Texas that clearly had a couple of Hawkens on the pile of scrap iron

I know a fella that was a child during WW2 and like many good boys and girls of those years participated in the scrap drives in his city. He remembers all too well the large number of muzzleloaders turned in to be made into war material.
Psalms 144

Offline flinchrocket

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1750
Re: Historically Correct Flintlocks
« Reply #69 on: December 06, 2015, 04:02:17 AM »
Am I wrong in thinking that William Clark's "Small" rifle was a half stock?

I don't have my references with me so cannot double check.

Bruce
  Bruce,I was mistaken. The William Clark rifle and the Francis Vigo rifle are both halfstock and both have
been converted from flint to percussion.

Online Hungry Horse

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5580
Re: Historically Correct Flintlocks
« Reply #70 on: December 06, 2015, 08:32:21 PM »
I think this lock was never a flinter. It is too short from the drum to the forward end, and the engraving has not been interrupted, when the supposed pan, would have been removed. I think this lock looks like it might have been the right side lock off of a double barreled gun of some type. That would account for at least one of the questionable holes in front of the questionable hammer. It is no doubt a production lock of some type.

          Hungry Horse

Offline Swampwalker

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 387
Re: Historically Correct Flintlocks
« Reply #71 on: December 08, 2015, 10:28:28 PM »
Regarding the original question about half-stock flintlocks, I was just looking through Whisker's 'Arms Makers of Western Pennsylvania'; on page 177 there is a very pretty half-stock flintlock by a J. McCamant.  It looks like it was origninally made as a half stock.  Worth a look anyway.

Offline oldtravler61

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4447
  • We all make mistakes.
Re: Historically Correct Flintlocks
« Reply #72 on: December 09, 2015, 12:47:14 AM »
 On page 78 of R.L. Wilson's book American Gun. He shows two  Harper's Ferry Armory 1803 half stock flintlocks. Wonder how many were made an how many were carried west. Since I wasn't there don't have the answer.

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13415
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: Historically Correct Flintlocks
« Reply #73 on: December 09, 2015, 02:07:54 AM »
Lots of those made. I've handled lots of originals. Quite clunky in my opinion. Since these were military issue I doubt if many civilians could get their hands on them.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline bgf

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1403
Re: Historically Correct Flintlocks
« Reply #74 on: December 09, 2015, 03:36:17 AM »
Ivey #128 signed H.Ledford seems like an authentic flint halfstock.  Dated by provenance to 1838, and that seems consistent with the style.