Grandpa's Flintlock Might Have Been?

[Fred Hembree]

I would appreciate your help!  I have been wondering what kind of flintlock my 4th great grandfather may have carried.  Here is his story...his name was John Knowles who fought in the American Revolution.  He came here from Ireland and lived for a time near Shippensburg, PA.  It is my understanding that Shippensburg is the oldest community of the Cumberland Valley, and the second oldest west of the Susquehanna River in Pennsylvania (after York to the east).  Shippensburg was settled by Scots-Irish families and began as a western outpost of Colonial settlement.  That said, Grandpa reenlisted each year for about 6 years or until Cornwallis surrendered.  Grandpa Knowles volunteered for 12 months under Capt. William Ripper from Carlisle in Cumberland Co., PA. They marched to Valley Forge on the Schuylkill River, crossed the river and joined the main army at Amboy. He then volunteered again in 1776 under Capt. William Sharp and was appointed to provide pasture, etc. for Continental cattle. The first year he served as private: providing beef cattle for the soldiers. The second year, he served as a sergeant, guarding the Carlisle Barracks, for 12 months. Except, for this one year of guard duty, he was directed to provide beef cattle for the soldiers and forage for the army horses.  When he would start these cattle to slaughter at headquarters, for the soldiers, he routed the cattle by his home, near Shippenburg, PA, so he could call by to see his wife and child.   It is on record that he saw George Washington and General Green, but did not speak with them personally.  Following the American Revolution, he lived in Augusta County, Virginia for a number of years then moved to Amhurst County, VA and later Pendleton County VA.  He moved to the hills of Tennessee in the later years of his life and is buried in White County, TN.  The DAR placed a special marker on his grave.

Now, with all that said, I'd like to consider a build of something that might be like what he had following the war.  I know this is pure speculation folks, but it would warm my heart to have something like my 4th great grandpa may have used.  Again, I understand it would be just a notion...but nonetheless, thank you for the time you took to read this and for any suggestions.

[L. Akers]

My guess it would more than likely have been a musket.

[smart dog]

Hi Fred,
Wonderful story and congratulations for having that history and family knowledge.  So much would depend on with which unit or units your ancestor served.  I suspect he was not in a rifle unit if he spent time guarding Carlisle Barracks, but I am not sure of that.  He may have served with a Colonial or Continental line unit because I doubt an important place like the barracks would have been entrusted to militia. In that case he probably carried a smooth bored military musket.  It is also likely that the gun may have changed during the duration of the war.  Early on he may have carried a pattern of the Brown Bess or some sort of similarly constructed "Committee of Safety" musket.  Later, he may have been issued a French model musket.  Again, a lot would depend on with whom he served.

dave

[Fred Hembree]

Thanks guys...I suppose I should add that I'm really wondering especially about what he may have carried after the war as his personal flintlock?  Again, I know this is pure speculation...but would he have used the same gun after the war or would his personal flintlock been different for his use as a settler as he moved down from PA to VA and ultimately to TN?

[Ky-Flinter]

Hi Fred,

Welcome to ALR.  It's great that you have that family history.  I was just going to say, your GGGG-Grandfather may have owned/used a number of different arms during his lifetime.  Shippensburg is not too far from York and Lancaster, so before/after (during?) the Revolution, he could have owned a gun from one of those schools.  He may have needed to replace his gun when he was in Virginia, so that opens the possibility of a rifle from one of the Virgina schools.  Then maybe he liked to hunt squirrels in the hills of TN, so he got himself a small caliber squirrel rifle.

I would suggest you think about how you will use this gun.  Do you hunt deer?  If yes, a larger bore Lancaster or Va. rifle might be what you want.  Bird hunter?  Maybe a fowler then from one of these areas.

There are a number of companies and individuals that offer suitable kits for building these, or have one of the many builders here build one for you.  Take a look at what’s out there, and maybe GGGG-Grandfather Knowles will whisper in your ear, “There now, that’s the one!”  Good luck.  Let us know what you decide.

-Ron

[Fred Hembree]

Hey Ron...thanks.  Yes...I do hope gggg grandpa will "whisper in my ear" as you say, along the way.  For now, I'm just learning about flinty rifles as all I've had before are percussion cap.  I can share that I don't want just a "wall hanger" to look at, but rather something that I can use.  And yes, with retirement years approaching, deer hunting would be a nice thing to do with it. 

[flinchrocket]

Hello Fred
     I think you might want to look at the Joseph Bogel rifle in the archives and read the story of its
 first owner, might sound familiar.

[Ky-Flinter]

Here's a link to the Bogel rifle.....  http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=11168.0

-Ron

[Natureboy]

  I've been wondering the same thing about my colonial ancestors, who fought in militia units in the F&I and War of Independence.  They were in upstate New York, Ulster County to be exact, so I assume that their personal guns would have been English in style.  The first of these Ulster Irish, Alexander Kidd, came to NY in 1736, and was in the F&I War.  His sons Alexander, James and Robert (my 5-great grandfather) were in the 2nd Battalion, Ulster County Militia.  They were at White Plains, Harlem Heights, Saratoga and Valley Forge.  I assume that they eventually carried GI muskets, but I'm wondering about their personal weapons which they would have carried when called out as militia or Minutemen.  I'm assuming long rifles, 50 caliber or so, with round-faced English locks.  They owned a cotton mill on the Wallkill River, and they are reported to have been wealthy, so they might have been able to afford one of this fancy museum pieces from Pennsylvania; but they were also strict Calvinists, so might have been opposed to the fancy decoration of the typical Pennsylvania rifles we see in books.  What a fun thing to think about.

[smart dog]

Hi Natureboy,
I suspect they carried smoothbore fowling guns and/or muskets and if civilian-made, there may have been a strong Dutch as well as English influence.  I doubt they carried rifles.

dave

[Natureboy]

 ln reading Peter Alexander's book, he surmises that folks on the seacoast would have used fowling guns, but those upstate, where the game would have more likely been four-footed, carried rifles.  I've searched the internet for "New York gunsmiths," without much luck.  You maybe right about the Dutch influence, because they were among the earlier settlers in the area, as well as some Huguenots.  So far, I haven't seen anything about the style of guns those earlier settlers would have had.  Alexander Kidd fought for the English in the F&I War, and his sons against them in the Revolution.  Everything is a mystery in the fog of history.

[Fred Hembree]

Looking up gunsmiths who lived in Shippensburg PA back when my gggg grandpa was there I come across the name of Henry Carlile and also here on ALR I found the name John Joseph Henry (1786–1836) who had begun his training with his father, perhaps during the years that the Bushkill gunworks were operating (1799-1803), and later spent three months in Shippensburg—where Henry Albright, son of Andreas Albrecht, was working—to “perfect himself in his trade.”  Grandpa lived near Shippensburg then migrated down the mountains to Amhurst, Augusta and Pendleton Counties in VA. He stayed in VA for some years before pursuing land in TN during his later days of his life where he died an old man in 1830s.  I'm thinking he had a personal rifle from his days in Shippensburg or in the mountains of Virginia that he eventually carried into TN.  I'm loving your ideas and suggestions as they help make his journey "come alive" for me.

Ron and flinchrocket...really good read on the Bogle rifle. Thanks! 

[Tenn Hills Guy]

Curious if  you know where your G.father is buried?  I live in the next county up. We occasionally take a ride over to White County (Sparta area) on an ancient mountain road, coming down off the 'Plataw' as it's called here. An old cemetery along the way, wondering if? If You know where it is, and I can find it, would be glad to take some pics for you.  Wish I could track my family back that far.  They came from England........maybe your Gdaddy shot one of 'em.....Hhm.  Bill

[Fred Hembree]

Yes...Tennessee Hills Guy...he is buried at the Mt. Pisgah Methodist Church Cemetery, just off the Old Kentucky Road. Not too very far from Quebeck, TN where he lived in the later years of his life following the Revolution. His grave is near the front to the far right side as you face the front of the church. I haven't been up that way in a long time. You can read one account of him here.

http://www.knowlesclan.org/america.htm

[Acer Saccharum]

Living in NY, and a rifle builder, I'd love to find a New York Rev War era rifle. I've never seen one, I have not heard of any NY gunsmiths making rifles in that time period.

In 'Bloody Mohawk', I read of Gen. Herkimer employing rifles and smooth bores in the Battle of Oriskany.

[Fred Hembree]

I have found these names of gunmakers from Shippensburg, PA area from around the time frame my gggg grandpa would have been there or shortly thereafter as he made his way to southern Virginia and on into Tennessee.

Henry Carlise
John Clark
George Dunkle
William Mewhirter
George Piper

[JB2]

well Fred, I see only one solution.  You'll need at least one gun, from each area, from each time period he was there.  There, problem solved

[WadePatton]

Hah, Old Kentucky Road  I've ridden it a few times, but never in a motor vehicle. We start at Foglight and go up to Burgess Falls and back, then eat at Foglight.   

Knowles was the name of a neighboring farmer that almost joins Mom's place.  Over there in Wilson Fred, you've been right near it. I believe Wayne was his name.  He died a few years back in a tractor incident.  Wondering if there's any connection there. 

Looks like you can pick some of many and stay "lineal".  Options, good to have.

[Fred Hembree]

I really like the way you are thinkin Jim B and hey...WadePatton, ifin you have ridden up the Old Kentucky Road from Rock Island to Cookeville, then you have gone right by the Mt. Pisgah Methodist Church where gggg grandpa Knowles is buried.  Not sure about the Knowles fellow from Wilson Co but there are several around middle and east TN.  And you are right, it is nice to have options.

[Arcturus]

Great post, Fred, and of particular interest to me because I'm doing the same thing: trying to acquire flintlocks that could have been similar to something owned and carried by Rev War veteran ancestors.  I have a couple gggg grandfathers that I have been able to trace to Virginia units during the AWI, and they settled after the war in western NC and eastern KY.  Others relatives of the time period ended up in the Salem, NC area, east TN, and the Cumberland Gap area.  It has been extremely fun researching and learning so much about the firearms of the era the past few years.  I have always had a love for history, and to shoot and hunt with flintlocks patterned closely after a particular time and place really gives us a tangible connection to the lives of our ancestors...besides just being so much fun!  Be careful, though!  I have a Virginia rifle and a fowler now, but as Jim B posted, find myself wanting more flintlocks from other places and eras where ancestors were.  I now "need" an early Moravian rifle,  a small-bore east Tennessee mountain rifle, a late-18th Century rifle from the Salem area (and maybe one from the western NC mountains), a Carolina gun like my mixed-blood Indian ancestors might have had mid-18th Century, etc.  Unfortunately, I find my desires are bigger than my bank account. 

I think you'll find, as I have, that ALR is a great resource populated by lots of great folks who are extremely talented and knowledgeable.  Good luck on your quest! 

[Fred Hembree]

Thank you Arcturus.  Here is information directly from my gggg grandpas pension application.  Interesting read.  I've laid awake at night thinking about the guns he may have had...and where they came from.  I would imagine PA was where he got his first flintlock and then maybe another from his time in Southwest VA.

In applying for a Revolutionary War pension in 1833, John Knowles made these statements:

State of Tennessee, White County

On this 16th date of August, A.D. 1833, personally appeared before me, Joseph Herd, an acting Justice of the Peace in and for said County and State, John Knowles a resident of the County of White and State of Tennessee aged eighty four years, who first being duly sworn according to the law doth on this oath make the following Declaration in order to obtain the benefit of the Act of Congress passed June 7th, 1832.

That he entered the service to the United States under the following named officers and served as herein stated. He volunteered his services for 12 months under Captain William Rippee, in the year 1775 as well as he can now recollect, in Cumberland County in the State of Pennsylvania. His lieutenants' names were Matthew Scott and William Smith, according to his present recollection. Captain Rippee's Company met at Carlisle in said Cumberland County. From thence declarant marched to Valley Forge on the Schuylkill River where he remained about two weeks. He then crossed the above river at this place and marched to Amboy on the banks of some stream, the name of which this declarant does not remember. At this place he fell in with the main Army. The Army were here but a short time when they were marched from Amboy and this declarant, among a number of others, were left with the pack horses. Captain Rippee directed him to remain and make it his business to provide provender for the horses. Here this declarant remained discharging the above duty until Captain Rippee directed him by letter to carry the horses back to Cumberland County to a place called Shippensburg and there vendue the horses off, stating as a reason for thus disposing of the horses that they intended getting wagons and thereby supercede the necessity of pack horses. He went back with the horses and disposed of the horses as directed. His instructions were to return the papers in relation to the sale of the horses to Robert Peoples, Esqr. and Peter Dickey a merchant in Shippensburg, which he did. His 12 months had now expired and he returned to his family consisting of a wife and 1 child about four miles from the above town.

In the year following, 1776 to the best of his recollection, he again volunteered under Captain William Sharp. Joseph Culberson, he thinks was the name of his lieutenant. He was under Major Smith of Yellow Britches Creek, by whom he was appointed to provide provender, pasture, etc. for the Continental cattle. He continued in the employment from the year 1776 until the surrender of Lord Cornwallis. During this time he frequently had an opportunity of seeing his family. Headquarters was at Morristown some considerable time. During this service the Battle of Lexington and Bunker Hill was fought, but he was not in either, being then out providing cattle for the Army. He recollects to have seen General Green and Washington, but he had no acquaintance with either of them. Thus he continued to serve his county until the surrender of Lord Cornwallis when he was discharged and returned home. Having served his county as above something like six years in all. He is informed that he can only claim pay for two years service: he therefore states that he served two years for which he claims a pension.

Answers to the questions proscribed by the War Department:

1. He was born in Ireland in the town of Ballymena, on the River Main in Antrim County, parish of Ahoghill, the 4th of July, 1749.

2. He has a record of his age in the house.

3. He was living in Cumberland County, State of Pennsylvania, when called into

service as stated. Since the Revolutionary War he has lived in Augusta County, Amherst County and Pendleton County in the State of Virginia. (Pendleton County is now in West Virginia.) From Pendleton County in the year 1807, he moved and settled in White County, Tennessee, where he now resides and has resided ever since.

4. He volunteered each time when called into service.

He states the names of the following persons to whom he is known in his present neighborhood and who can testify as to his character for veracity and their belief of his services as a soldier of the Revolution: Rev. Peter Buram, Rev. Abel Hutson, Isaac Taylor and Major James Randalls. (signed) John Knowles.

In a second statement on March 18, 1834, he included the fact that he was a Sergeant in charge of guarding Carlisle Barracks in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania in 1777.

[Dave Marsh]

This is a fantastic post!!  I am in the process of looking up my ancestors as well.  My GGGG Grandfather (maybe too many G's) lived in southern Vermont near the Massachusetts border.  His name was John Crosier (born in 1730).  He has been confused with the John Crosier who served on Bunker Hill in past research but that has proven to be in error.   The Crosier line I am related to did not serve in the revolution however did serve in the French and Indian War.  He and 2 of his sons did.  I will be looking for more information on the guns they may have used as well.  Very interesting and thanks for sharing your info.

 

Dave

[Fred Hembree]

Thanks Strong Bear. I wish you success in your quest to learn more about your family line. As for flintlocks, That "may" be like one gggg grandpa had, I wonder about the Colonial Virginia Rifle at Cabin Creek as a possible contender?  As some shared earlier in his Rev. War days he may have had a musket.  But I suspect he had a rifle by time he came south out of PA and settled in the mountains of SW Virginia. By the time he came to TN it was early 1800s. He could have gotten a TN rifle then, but I would imagine he carried what he had when he lived in PA or VA to TN. I'm loving considering the possibilities.