Went Shooting Today

[George F.]

Gathered up my smooth bore this morning , and headed out to meet a friend at a chili shoot around 85 miles from home. My second time with this 14 gauge shoulder buster. Loaded her up with 70 grains of ff, wads and patched .662 ball. Goes off with a bang every time , but after 10 shots, I either double charged, or wasn't ready and boy, I found my arm pit/houlder hurt like $#*!. Shrugged it off, and loaded and shot again. Too late, the damage was done...and so was I. I couldn't take any more banging on that tender pit. The smoothie shoots alittle to the right about 4" at 50 yards. I haven't benched this gun yet and haven't worked up a load. I hope my 20 gauge doesn't slam me when I'm done with it in a few weeks. I've heard smoothies go off before, but mine and my friends, a 14 gauge also, sounds like a rifle going off. Why's that? Well it was fun, and the chili was good.   ...Geo.

[Candle Snuffer]

To bad about the shoulder, George.  I couldn't say why you and your friends smoothie sounds like a rifle going off.  I expect there is someone here who will know.

Like you, I to got to the range today for our monthly shoot.  I think I set new highs in lows for shooting...   That's ok, I still had a great time with the ol' flinter...  

[Daryl]

Sorry to hear your 14 bore hurt you - they'll do that if they're really light.   It must be easy/nice loading with a 16 bore ball.  Good choice!

[hanshi]

A rifle gets it characteristic "crack" because the ball breaks the sound barrier.  This is the same phenomenon that occurs when a jet exceeds the speed of sound.  I'd suspect what everyone was hearing was the ball breaking the sound barrier.  Depending on your position the "crack" would be more audible than the "boom" of the powder charge.  Your loads were obviously of hunting quality!  Sounds like lots of fun was had.

[Candle Snuffer]

Geezzz, I must be losing my mind.  I knew that also Flintr, I just couldn't think of it???  I remember reading that old timers use to work their loads up until they heard the "crack" of the rifle.  They then knew they had a flat/fast/accurate load.  They were ready for anything.  How many times have we heard the saying,,, "the crack of those Kentucky rifles..."

Ok, I know you guys in Pennsylvania have heard;

"the crack of those Pennsylvania rifles" or "the crack of those Lancaster rifles"

 

[Roger Fisher]

Well now, 4 of us motored hr and a half south to Langhorne, Pa yesterday - calm 0vercast 34 shooters, offhand 25 50 yds., x stix, chunk, bench, staff, kneeling hit eggs at 50 yds. 3 shots for $2. hit 2 out of 3 shots for sirloin, other meat prizes.  some fine shooting done, trk leaned a bit coming north.

Life is good!

[Daryl]

I beg to differ - I don't call a 1,100fps load(just over speed of sound), a fast accurate load.  It may be a normal load for a 6 bore with a 4oz. slug but not a small bore rifle.(under 6 bore)   My 14 bore made 1,200fps with 82gr. of 3F - but dropped to 1,000fps with 82gr. of 2F. I doubt 70gr. of 2f went faster, unless it was Swiss powder.

From the speed testing I've done,  I suggest the 14 bore shooting a 16 bore ball might have been getting close to the above number with 70gr. 2F - but barely - maybe closer to 900fps.

[hanshi]

Candle Snuffer, I've read that too.  I remember an article way back in Gun Digest (I think it was by Francis Sell) where he built a .45 muzzle loader.  He mentioned that he did just that.  Without testing for accuracy he increased the charge until he heard a satisfying "crack" and knew he had the correct (65 grains, if I'm not mistaken) load.  Such a charge would give a velocity in the 1700 - 1800 fps range with 3f.  The charge he started with would have given a velocity well over 1100fps but he didn't have the "crack" he was waiting to hear until he reached those upper speeds.  There's a real difference in the report of a well loaded rifle and a musket, etc.  A larger ball will make a more pronounced sound than a smaller one.  Sometimes the bp "boom"  will drown it out depending where you're standing and the nature of your surroundings.  I still have no other explanation than the sound from exceeding mach 1.  The report from MY rifles with hunting loads is noticeably sharper than with target loads.  The hunting load is in the 2000fps range.

Daryl, I agree with you that 1100fps isn't a fast load in a long gun.  In a pistol or revolver, yes, but not a long gun.  However, the larger the projectile, the louder the sound.  An example would be the difference between a .22LR as opposed to a jet with both at mach 1.  An extreme example, to be sure, but it holds across the spectrum.  Just a thought but I'd think the location & surroundings would make a difference as well.  Also, the "boom" of firing bp isn't as dull as some imagine.  Some of the solid (and gaseous) powder ejecta can exit the bore at mach 1 even if the heavier ball is just under.  I do admit (from experience) that if you haven't fired bp in a while the report is stout.  Black powder firearms have a tremendous "concussive" report, anyway as opposed to a "pop" or short duration "crash" sound of smokeless powder.  Fired in a dwelling a smokeless arm would be ear ringing; a bp arm would be deafening!   Bp is noisy and I like that.

[Daryl]

My 165gr.2F Moose load in the 14 bore was very satisfying, especially the effect on the moose - dead inside 20 yards, but caving in to the shot, then staggering those 2 to 20 yards. This is very much different than the racing horse dash they do from the small calibres - those under about .58 or 20 bore -  but those smaller .58 cal. and .20 bores have to be fed to do it. Squib loads under about 120gr. will certainly kill them eventually, but make 'em dash initially. You usually can't tell they've been hit.

Sonic cracks can be heard upon reaching 1,100fps - of course, they're louder the higher the speed above that. With 65gr. to 75gr. 3f in the .40, you really hear it. The speeds run 2,000fps to 2,200ps.  For a ML- they give stretched string flight and less wind drift - within reasonable range for a small bore.  The fox target we have at 92yards on the trail, is an almost dead centre with a 55 yard zero. The ball striking barely over 2" lower than the front sight.

[hanshi]

Daryl,
First, congratulations on the moose.  The load you describe sounds like a real bear.  Not sure my shoulder would appreciate that level of recoil.  I have no doubt a moose would drop "DRT" after being hit by that load.  Just curious but would you willing to tell me about the barrel?  I'd be interested in knowing octagon  to round, straight octagon, etc.  14 bore, is that about 69 caliber?

[northmn]

I used to notice a different sound when I loaded a card wad under the bore in my smoothbores.  I used to believe that was a better loading but many on this site claim it is not as accurate and so forth.  They have probably shot more RB in a smoothbore than I have.  I use mostly shot in one.  Daryl  lives in an area where he can hunt moose and other bigger critters.  His definition of a big bore and a lite load is a little different than mine.  However for target shooting, the bigger bores hurt after awhile.  Notice how popular the 40 is on various threads.  Time heals all wounds as they say.

DP

[Daryl]

The barrel is a Green River Rifle Works, 32" straight octagonal at 1 1/8" across the flats with .012" rifling.  Weight was 9 pounds in English cap-gun style.  With the 'hunting' load, it held accuracy to 300 meters which was the zero for the third leaf of the rear sight.

82gr. 3F, which is 3 drams (equivalent to 100gr. 2F for speed) was an easy load to shoot, all day at close targets - had to increase the charge for longer shots.  Smoothbore 14's are usually lighter, but I find even in a 20 bore, 80gr. 2F is easy to shoot- and it should be - only barely running speed of sound- maybe. This rifle shoots 1.2" to 1.5" for 5 shots at 100 yards virtually every time it's benched. No, no scope. It actually seems easy to shoot like that.  I've oft wondered how it would do if a scope was mounted.  Ball of .684" was .006" under bore size, with a .022" denim patch.  A smoothbore would need a much smaller ball but I'd use the same thick patch - they hold more lube and clean much better.  I tried a .015" denim patch with the 3 dram close range load at near 100F temps and the patches burnt up into shards of cloth. Had to go to the thicker patch even with the light load.  Here in the North, the thinner patch had previously been OK with the light charge, but failed at Rondy at high temps.  This is something else to consider.

[Larry Pletcher]

Daryl,
When I was trying to get a photo of a patch separating from a ball, I loaded my .40 down to 1000 fps so that .001 second would = 1 foot of distance.  I was surprised how little powder it took.  Using fffg 15 grains Swiss landed me 1025  fps or so.  I don't have my notes in front of me but I think 20 gr was over 1200 fps.   You're right, it is not a strong load, but it served my purpose.

Regards,
Pletch

[hanshi]

   Daryl, I figured you had to have a heavy bbl to burn those 165grn charges.  Even light loads in big bores hurt when I shoot them off a bench.

   Larry P, Interesting experiment.  In the small bores it's amazing the velocity one can get form small charges.  I chronographed both a .32 and .36 I own with 30grn charges of Goex 3f.  the .32 showed over 1760fps and the .36 came in at 1635fps.  I took delivery of my .40 in October but haven't had an opportunity to fire it yet.   

[Daryl]

Gun weight makes a big difference in felt recoil, but so does design- probably more important. You could try to shoot a 10 pound Hawken in .69cal. with even a moderate 120gr. load and you'd only fire one or two before recoil would stop you. However, in an English Sporting rifle of 9 pounds, 120gr. is an easy load to shoot- all day, too. A bit of a shove & muzzle rise but no punch in the shoulder.

As to velocities, it seems apparent to me, the small bore, small charge, high velocity might be where the 'calibre charge' came from.  In a .30 or .32, 30gr. of powder gives good velocity and trajectory over it's effective range.  In a .36, 36gr. of powder also gives good velocity.  Shooting 50gr. in a .50 or 54gr. in a .54 gives very load speeds with much higher trajectories.  A friend shoots 65gr. 2f in his .62cal smoothie and the drop is incredible. Every 10 yards distance seems to require a different 'hold' to hit.  His ball may be travelling 850fps. Indeed, hitting plates gives the impression he is shooting factory 158gr. RN's .38 SPL - with the time difference between the sound of the gun and plate hit clang.

He tried some heavier 80/90gr. type loads and the difference was amazing. He was then breaking the sound barrier and this was evident from the sound alone.

[Roger Fisher]

Gun weight makes a big difference in felt recoil, but so does design- probably more important. You could try to shoot a 10 pound Hawken in .69cal. with even a moderate 120gr. load and you'd only fire one or two before recoil would stop you. However, in an English Sporting rifle of 9 pounds, 120gr. is an easy load to shoot- all day, too. A bit of a shove & muzzle rise but no punch in the shoulder.

As to velocities, it seems apparent to me, the small bore, small charge, high velocity might be where the 'calibre charge' came from.  In a .30 or .32, 30gr. of powder gives good velocity and trajectory over it's effective range.  In a .36, 36gr. of powder also gives good velocity.  Shooting 50gr. in a .50 or 54gr. in a .54 gives very load speeds with much higher trajectories.  A friend shoots 65gr. 2f in his .62cal smoothie and the drop is incredible. Every 10 yards distance seems to require a different 'hold' to hit.  His ball may be travelling 850fps. Indeed, hitting plates gives the impression he is shooting factory 158gr. RN's .38 SPL - with the time difference between the sound of the gun and plate hit clang.

He tried some heavier 80/90gr. type loads and the difference was amazing. He was then breaking the sound barrier and this was evident from the sound alone.

Jeez, did he hit more and miss less?

[Daryl]

sorry - the day (3 weeks ago) he tried the heavier loads, he 'rang' the 92 yard fox every time by aiming at it's top edge with his 25 yard sight picture.   With his normal 65gr.2F  load, he was shoot a good 10" underneath the gong, maybe 10" with the same sight picture.  Last time out which was last Sunday, he'd forgotten about the heavy loads and shot underneath the fox - again.  Memory is sometimes fragile. Of course, I didn't remind him of the heavier loads that shoot better at longer ranges.

  Watching with binocs is fun as you can see the big shiny balls sailing out there.  Sometimes they appear to go straight in a normal arc but now and then, perhaps due to imperfections inside (shrinkage holes?) they take on a trumpet's shape for a flight path, veering off target in an exponential curve-ball of flight- seemingly sideways or down.  I suspect I'll see one go up sooner or later.  Fun to watch. Those who load the 20 bores heavier in the 75gr. to 85gr. range, obtain pretty much straight flight out to that 92 yard target & with good accuracy too.