Ramrod hole drill troubles

[Nordnecker]

I know this is a topic that has been addressed many times. I have read many old posts and anything I can find on the subject. But, I need some help.
I have one of the drills sold by Track of the Wolf. Every time I get ready to drill, I have the stock blank firmly clamped to my workbench surface, which is very sturdy and nice and flat. The groove is done. I try to make sure that there isn't a high spot at the entry. I make blocks to guide the drill bit. I make sure that they aren't too tight. I can turn the bit freely with just my hand. I try to go slowly, only drilling a half inch or so at a time. I remove the bit every 4 or 5 "plunges" and lube it with beezwax and cool it in a bucket of water. I think this heat buildup is an indication that something is definitely wrong.
Before I started (yesterday) I ran a small slipstone along the flutes and the pointed end being careful not to change the center of the bit. I drilled about 2 inches into the stock, unclamped everything and checked the depth. Everything seemed to be ok so I set it all up and went back to drilling. I could tell it wasn't going well. The bit was hard going, it was building up heat. I tried honing again. Nothing seemed to help. I lost patience and just kept going.
This piece of wood is trashy, soft, gummy, worm-holy and not of any particular value, so I wasn't too woried about screwing it up, which I did. The hole went low- way too low. So I cut the stock in half just to see what the hole looked like. '
It was centered pretty well below the barrel channel. The sides were clean. But here's the strange part. The drill bit wouldn't even fit back into the hole.  ???How can this be? If the bit heated up during drilling, Wouldn't the hole be a little oversized? I did not measure the bit to see if it is smaller at the cutting end than the shank. In an old post, someone said they "flair" or upset the cutting tip. How do you do that? How do you keep this drill bit sharp? I've only drilled about 7 or 8 holes with it.
Any suggetions greatly appreciated. I gotta go for now.

[rich pierce]

It definitely sounds like your drill bit is smaller at the cutting edge than at the shank.  The binding of the shank and shaft is probably what is causing the heat.  You'd probably be better off with a little wobble than the tight setup you have because with some wobble the tip would clear a wider hole.

I would grind back the tip until you have the same diameter at the cutting edge as at the shank.  The other more laborious option would be to relieve the shank by draw filing (if not too hard for the file) until is it .005 undersized.  But forearms are not that long so it seems a viable option.  Probably 14" of the drill could be reduced by that amount in a reasonable period of time.  If you had a belt sander it would be a piece of cake.

[David Rase]

Wood can have a mind of its own.  No, I think a truer statement is wood DOES have a mind of its own.  I have drilled more ramrod holes than most and I have not found a magic formula yet to get 100% accuracy if I do everything I am supposed to.  Believe me, it drives me nuts not to be in control when I am using tools.  In fact, I am making modifications to my barrel inletting machine that I hope will allow me to drill more accurate ramrod holes.  I have an unhealthy addiction to figuring out how to drill the perfect ramrod hole each and every time.  Unfortunately, their are too many factors working against me to ever accomplish that goal.  Things like figure, wood density, grain direction, moisture content etc. all play into where the bit goes and you have little or no ability to overcome these problems.  

With that said, I can tell you that I have had a number of stocks over the years where the barrel was inlet perfectly and after drilling the ramrod hole the barrel would not fit back into the stock until I did a bit of hand fitting in the area directly adjacent to the ramrod hole.  The stock shrunk enough from the drill that the barrel channel tightened up.  My bit would get tight as you mentioned and it was not because the hole wondered, it was due to moisture content in the wood dissipating due to the heat of the drill and the wood collapsing on the drill.  I have even had ramrod holes that I drilled for guns I am building that months later had to have the drill ran back down the hole due to seasonal shrinkage.  

I have babbled on long enough this beautiful Sunday morning.  I did not really address your concerns and am not sure that there ever is going to be a definitive answer.  Until then, we must keep on drilling making sure we are doing everything we can to obtain the perfect ramrod hole.  If we do this, we can have success many times over with only the occasional mishap.
David          

[gunmaker]

Those single flute bits are notoriously hard cutters.  Hard pushing--in my experience will cause the bit to go astray.
 I've had better luck with the brad point bits.  It takes more time but pull the bbl. and check the web depth every few inches.
 Or drill 3 inches & cut the rest channel from inside....Tom

[jerrywh]

 I understand the principal of that type drill bit and if they are made correctly they do a good job on deep hole drilling of barrels and such but I do not use those for Ram rod holes. I use regular drill bits that are soldered to a 3/8" metal rod and I usually drill a tapered hole for a tapered rod. I have never had a hole go off very far except once. That time it came into the barrel channel. I think the secret to a straight hole is getting the groove perfect for a guide. The hols is seldom going to be perfect. In your case something has to be wrong with that bit in my opinion.
 I would try it on another piece of wood. Like some have said wood has a mind of it's own.

[Acer Saccharum]

Mister Genius Rase had told me he could get the most accurate location for the rr by drilling the hole first, yes drilling the hole first, then inletting the barrel afterwards.

[Acer Saccharum]

That was his response when I'd complained that he drilled my rr hole off by .002.

[mark esterly]

I have only used that type of drill once, a 5/16" drill in a hand brace and noticed similarly that afterwards the drill was a really tight fit and chalked it up to the wood drying more in that area.  I could not have expected better for straight and proper placement and will continue to use these drills. I did use tallow not beeswax for lube and i'm wondering if the wax soaking into the wood made it swell even more than tallow would. there is significant heat generated and both the wax and tallow would be in the liquid state while drilling.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I have a set of three of those drills from TOW and I found that they drill straighter than anything else I've come up with.  The worst was a 1/2" twist drill with a brad point, especially made for wood...much too flexible.

When I worked for Robinson in the last century, I drilled almost two hundred rod holes, mostly in figured Claro, Bastone, and English walnut, all with a brad point 7/16" wood drill, and only one ran out - through the bottom too.

[PPatch]

That was his response when I'd complained that he drilled my rr hole off by .002.

The customer is always right... not   Your remark brought a chuckle Acer, off .002 indeed. The nerve of some contractors!

dave

[Ed Wenger]

Somehow, I feel better about my ram rod hole drilling experiences after reading these posts, lol...  Especially David's, thanks!  They can certainly be challenging....


     Ed

[One Shot]

I have a set of three of those drills from TOW and I found that they drill straighter than anything else I've come up with.  The worst was a 1/2" twist drill with a brad point, especially made for wood...much too flexible.

When I worked for Robinson in the last century, I drilled almost two hundred rod holes, mostly in figured Claro, Bastone, and English walnut, all with a brad point 7/16" wood drill, and only one ran out - through the bottom too.

Was that a .54 cal pistol?

[Nordnecker]

Thanks everyone for your responses. I was gone most of the day yesterday. I measured my drill bit and it is .343.5 at the point and .345 along the shank. I don't quite know what I'll do to try and solve this problem. It will surely be a few weeks before I'm ready to drill again.
I've pretty much drilled low on every hole I've attempted. I need to change my set-up, I guess.
On my last rifle, the hole went low. I scrapped that stock blank and shimmed up the forward end of the bit and got it to come out right. I suppose it's a better default to just plan on comming out the Bbl channel.

[Long John]

Nordecker,

I have been using the TOTW barrel boring drills for RR holes for a long time.  I have a number of different sizes.  Here is what I have learned.

1.)  The tips are ground for boring metal - not wood.  If you don't regrind the cutting edge on the tip end of the drill it will cut very hard, requiring substantial axial force while rotating the bit.  That force compresses the wood ahead of the cutting edge.  That compressed wood will spring back.  I regrind the cutting edge with a MUCH steeper rake angle.  This makes the cutting edge sharper and more suitable for wood.

2.)  With a corrected tip/cutting edge profile less axial force is needed to advance the drill.  Less axial force makes the bit less likely to veer off-course due to density variations in the wood.  All stock-blanks have those.

3.)  The most critical aspect of setting up to bore the RR hole is to make absolutely certain that the RR groove is straight, of uniform depth and properly lined up to hit your target ending location within the blank.  This last criterion is often one of the hardest to achieve when doing this step with hand tools.  Draw clear guidelines on all 4 sides of your blank and use a square and long straight-edge to double-check your groove and the lay of your drill-bit as you drill.

4.)  If your drill is turning hard stop and figure out why.  Your brace and bit are talking to you!

5.)  If your RR hole begins to veer off you can straighten out with a steel rood of RR diameter, sharpened with a concentric, long, slender, pyramidal point that is heated red-hot and slid into the hole and quickly twisted.  This chars the wood and the twisting makes a re-centered pilot hole at the leading end of the RR hole.  The bit will then follow the re-centered pilot hole.

This is what I have learned by screwing up so much.  I hope it helps you out.

Best Regards,

John Cholin

[flehto]

When I made my first RR drill out of a length of drill rod and a brazed on twist drill, I wondered what king of drill point would be better for curly maple. Came to the conclusion that a flat  bottom  drill point would in a way perform somewhat like an endmill. ...cut independently irrespective of varying grain direction and hardness. My choice was correct when I drilled 4 blanks and the RR holes came out where they  should be.  After these 4 blanks I used Fred Miller for bbl inletting and the RR work and he did an excellent job.

Later on visited Fred and as he was showing me around, I saw his RR drills and  looked at the drill points....all had flat bottom drill points. What's good about a flat bottom drill point is that it's more easily sharpened VS a brad point and to some degree, an angled drill point......Fred

 

[smallpatch]

Acer,
That Mr Rase must not like me.  He did one for me that was off almost 1/64th of an inch.  Just can't get good help these days!!

[David Rase]

Acer,
That Mr Rase must not like me.  He did one for me that was off almost 1/64th of an inch.  Just can't get good help these days!!

Dane,
That must of been one I drilled without my wife.  Like all good wife's, it is their job to keep us in line. 
David

[jerrywh]

Acer,
That Mr Rase must not like me.  He did one for me that was off almost 1/64th of an inch.  Just can't get good help these days!!

The hole was in the right place. The stock was off.

[Acer Saccharum]

Who wears the grass skirt in your house, Mr. Rase?

[jerrywh]

 Once a cop pulled me over for not signalling and I told him my wife wasn't with me and she tells me when to signal and stop.  He wrote me a warning ticket and told me not to get caught driving without my wife again.

[David Rase]

Acer,
That Mr Rase must not like me.  He did one for me that was off almost 1/64th of an inch.  Just can't get good help these days!!

Dane,
Just to show you there are no hard feelings, I mailed a package to you, or should I say to your grandson, today.  
David

[JCKelly]

Well, I am old, grouchy and inexperienced in ramrod holes, compared to you guys. I drilled maybe ten or so in rifles. All happened to come out right.

I in my ancient way might suggest that the first thing to do is pack away your power drill and get a good brace. Personally I find it a lot more controllable. I probably did everything wrong with drill point (I did file my own brad point on a piece of drill rod, maybe for my first short rifle with walnut stock). Nevertheless the bit did not go thru the side of the stock. I am not particularly skilled or lucky, my normal approach is to measure once and cut three times. So for me I do need the forgiving nature of a muscle powered tool.

Obviously I am not a machinist. I can barely use my drill press. Have used two lathes in gunmaking, one a jeweler's lathe that is operated much like a wood lathe, only finer. The other which I used to turn horn plugs and necks I made from a non-Chinese Bosch drill and old pallet oak.
Btw, for sake of all that is holy do not buy a Chinese drill bit. They cannot even make some of them straight.
Or will not.

I am aware that most hunks of metal we cut on are full of residual stress which can do interesting things to something one has hoped to cut precisely. I learned this in industry and in my own shop (really dumb) No doubt the same is true of that hunk of wood with which you are working. That nice power driven bit does heat up and dry out the wood locally, which means the hole will shrink.

Machinists. This is WOOD, guys.

I just do not understand machine tools & would not think of them as fun. This rifle below I made with a jeweler's lathe, a 1/4" B&D drill on a drill stand, chisels and files. I was never much of a craftsman but what I did was mostly without electricity.



You fellows know more than I knew ever existed about drill bits, lubrication &c. I wonder if perhaps some of you might minimize ram-rod hole problems simply by using a hand-powered drill?

[Mark Elliott]

Nordecker,

I have been using the TOTW barrel boring drills for RR holes for a long time.  I have a number of different sizes.  Here is what I have learned.

1.)  The tips are ground for boring metal - not wood.  If you don't regrind the cutting edge on the tip end of the drill it will cut very hard, requiring substantial axial force while rotating the bit.  That force compresses the wood ahead of the cutting edge.  That compressed wood will spring back.  I regrind the cutting edge with a MUCH steeper rake angle.  This makes the cutting edge sharper and more suitable for wood.

2.)  With a corrected tip/cutting edge profile less axial force is needed to advance the drill.  Less axial force makes the bit less likely to veer off-course due to density variations in the wood.  All stock-blanks have those.

3.)  The most critical aspect of setting up to bore the RR hole is to make absolutely certain that the RR groove is straight, of uniform depth and properly lined up to hit your target ending location within the blank.  This last criterion is often one of the hardest to achieve when doing this step with hand tools.  Draw clear guidelines on all 4 sides of your blank and use a square and long straight-edge to double-check your groove and the lay of your drill-bit as you drill.

4.)  If your drill is turning hard stop and figure out why.  Your brace and bit are talking to you!

5.)  If your RR hole begins to veer off you can straighten out with a steel rood of RR diameter, sharpened with a concentric, long, slender, pyramidal point that is heated red-hot and slid into the hole and quickly twisted.  This chars the wood and the twisting makes a re-centered pilot hole at the leading end of the RR hole.  The bit will then follow the re-centered pilot hole.

This is what I have learned by screwing up so much.  I hope it helps you out.

Best Regards,

John Cholin

Why didn't you tell me this before.     I have reground those drills a couple different ways but not like you suggest.   I will make sure I regrind before the next attempt.   

[Nordnecker]

I just want to thank everyone who took the time to try to help me out. I haven't had the time this week to work on anything in my shop. I'm gonna do some grinding on the drill bit and practice drilling on some scrap before trying on another stock blank. With all the rain and humidity we've had around here lately, any kind of woodwork or finishing is probably not a good idea. Too bad I wasn't ready to rust a barrel. It would have been perfect.

[Nordnecker]

I've spent several hours this morning just reading old posts 150 plus pages back. Boy, we sure do talk about the same stuff over and over  .  I saw some really strange shapes that people use on the ends of RR bits. One picture (by Dpharis I think) showed his homemade bit. It looked just like mine did as recieved from TOTW. He said he just "eyeballed" the angles at the point.
Well, I "eyeballed" a sharper point on the end of mine yesterday and tried it. It didn't work any better. In fact I think it got hotter. I only drilled about 1 1/2" deep and it was so hot I just quit.
So you guys that use a bit brace- Obviously, you have to shape the end of bit to fit in your brace?